I used to be religious and I always considered it very logical -- until I got involved with Mormons in Utah.. I found that I could not really reason with religious people -- too much of their arguments seemed to center around things going only within their heads.

They "knew" things... They were being led by a voice in their heads... They trusted their "feelings", and the "feelings" of other important people within their group... They justified certain "sins" (Breaking promises, commitments, marriages) on the basis of thoughts and feelings.

The Catholics (I was raised Catholic) argue that divorce is wrong because Jesus preached that divorce and remarriage is adultery (Mark Chap. 10). But they also argue that Jesus was only referring to a "valid" Catholic marriage. And they argue that a marriage is not "valid" if the person taking the vows had doubts in their head when they were taking the vows. Or actually was lying when they took the vow -- "Till death does us part". So they argue that based upon what was actually going on within the head of the people taking the vows -- a marriage either existed, or NEVER existed. Therefore if you were never married than you could have never been divorced -- so you did not break any commitment and you did not "sin"... regardless of how many kids you had or how long the "marriage" lasted.

The Christians that I was involved with in College argued that the "Holy Spirit" psychically guides the life of Christians. Therefore they live "Spirit led" lives. Their feelings are actually directions that they are getting from God! They pray -- and then God "answers" their prayers! With feelings and hunches..

When I was in Utah I got into an argument with a guy at work about the Mormon religion (The Mormons liked to talk religion at work..). He argued that if the Mormon religion was not "true" then "...I might as well kill my wife, and kill my kids, and burn down my house!!!!!" It took me a while to figure out what he was trying to argue. He was trying to argue that his wife, his kids, his house -- were all things that he had gotten BECAUSE of his Mormon religion. And if he were to throw away the religion then he might as well just throw away all of the good things that he had gotten because of it. It was like his magic bracelet. Since buying the magic bracelet all sorts of good things had happened in his life. And if he were to stop wearing that bracelet than he would risk losing the good things that he had gotten because of it. And he would risk not getting good things in the future. The Mormons "defend" their religion as being "true" with monthly "Testimonies" given at church.

I don't see why mormons should be considered any crazier than the other religious nutcases.

Thanks for sharing this tragic tale of what is all too common in our culture. I too used to be religious (Fundy Christian Apologist for nearly 20 years) and actually did "mission trips" to Salt Lake City, to try and de-convert the Mormons - telling them "You have the wrong Jesus!" etc.

What this story, and others like it, tell me (in part) is that religion placates to people's EMOTIONS. That is how their followers become sucked in. They find people who are vulnerable (somehow, some way, or in some manner) damn vulnerable. And then they EXPLOIT that vulnerability with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) irrationality (like a used car salesmen but more delusional), so they can get you to BUY what they are SELLING - except of course they don't tell you any of that. I know this feeling very well, as I lived and practiced it (on myself and others) for years. And indeed, I had it practiced on me first! That is how I got sucked-in in the first place. There is a great quote that goes something like this:

"You cannot reason a man out of a belief to which reason did not lead him in the first place."

So true!

Religion is for the intellectually lazy, the gullible, or the emotionally vulnerable. They need to read this book!

(December 10, 2012 at 6:35 pm)RichardP Wrote: The Christians that I was involved with in College argued that the "Holy Spirit" psychically guides the life of Christians. Therefore they live "Spirit led" lives. Their feelings are actually directions that they are getting from God! They pray -- and then God "answers" their prayers! With feelings and hunches..

Theologically "correct" since the "Holy Spirit" is supposed to be the part of the Trinity that resides within all believing Christians. It's the craziest part of the Trinity.

(December 10, 2012 at 7:08 pm)median Wrote: Religion is for the intellectually lazy, the gullible, or the emotionally vulnerable. They need to read this book!

What I find intriguing is the interplay between these attributes. I have some empathetic understanding of those that are gullible and/or emotionally vulnerable. In my experience conversations with theists of this sort can be fruitful; not for conversion, but for understanding. Gullibility alone can be overcome simply through conversation and explanation. Emotional vulnerability takes more effort to overcome in that unravelling the basis for the emotional attachment must be understood and addressed first, but it can be done. I have a lot of tolerance in most cases like these.

I quickly lose patience with most that are intellectually lazy. If intellectual laziness is combined with gullibility and/or emotional vulnerability, there's no hope. I have an acquaintence that recently told me that he's sticking with god because he doesn't want to take the time to consider evolution, cosmology, non-religios ideas of ethics, etc. I would usually dismiss meaningful conversation with people like this; however, when we meet he constantly probes me on topics he has already said he doesn't understand and doesn't care to. I think he actually does care, but is overcoming some embarassment to engage. I'll have to see is he can overcome.

I don't think promoting a culture of bullshit is the same as promoting a poor mental state.

(December 10, 2012 at 8:33 pm)Dee Dee Ramone Wrote: I don't think promoting a culture of bullshit is the same as promoting a poor mental state.

I agree, but I think that promoting a culture of bullshit is a means of taking advantage of poor mental states for the sake of money and power.

This thread title is a tautology.

I think Atheists promote insanity by not crying to an old wall, not willing to cover the female creatures of god, not respecting cows, not dressing in black on sunday, not believing in the virgin whore. I need help.

(December 10, 2012 at 11:02 pm)Dee Dee Ramone Wrote: I think Atheists promote insanity by not crying to an old wall, not willing to cover the female creatures of god, not respecting cows, not dressing in black on sunday, not believing in the virgin whore. I need help.

Not having an imaginary friend who knows everything and it directing you, not abstaining from sex and living as a Priest or Nun, not spending countless hours on their knees praying to their imaginary friend, not believing that there will be a never-ending paradise after they die...

Ok that last one is a little depressing...