(December 21, 2012 at 11:24 am)5thHorseman Wrote:

(December 21, 2012 at 10:45 am)Faith No More Wrote: Those small paychecks mean consumers are speding less, causing the economy to falter, and quite likey, it would create a new recession even though wer're still crawling out of the last.

Compared to Europe, the US is booming.

Yea the top 1 percent.

WHEN I started the job I have now, I was getting 5 days a week EVEN in the slow fall and winter in a resort town. Now during the slow periods I am lucky if I get 3 days a week.

Yea it is booming, for my boss. He is making more now than the prior owners he bought it from.

I think the Democrats are much too extreme, acting pretty much like the Fox News Republicans under Bush....I don't even listen or care what the Republicans say these days.

(December 22, 2012 at 12:23 am)Polaris Wrote: I think the Democrats are much too extreme, acting pretty much like the Fox News Republicans under Bush....I don't even listen or care what the Republicans say these days.

How are democrats extreme? That they want livable wages? Or that they want health care so that someone does not have to chose between rent or mortgage and doctor bills or food? Or that they don't want our streets to look like a gunfight between Wyat Erp and Dirty Harry and Tony Montana? Or that they think a woman's vagina is not property of the U.S. government? Or that democrats don't think gays are a sub species? Or that they don't think GE or EXXON need billions in tax cuts?

The fact they have propped Wall Street up, continued in the mistreatment of POWs, murdered thousands of civilians including children in drone strikes, have been determined to aid in the dissolution of governments which have caused thousands of civilians deaths, deported more immigrants than ever before, let the insurance industry further undermine healthcare, and undermined environmental regulations just to secure more favorable trading with China.

In California where I live, they have additionally made extreme cuts to social programs and education, which already ranks amongst the worst in the nation.

You may be fine with settling for less than what we deserve, but I'm not and I will not settle for the the conservative horseshit the Democrats think they can slip past us.

(December 22, 2012 at 3:59 am)Polaris Wrote: The fact they have propped Wall Street up, continued in the mistreatment of POWs, murdered thousands of civilians including children in drone strikes, have been determined to aid in the dissolution of governments which have caused thousands of civilians deaths, deported more immigrants than ever before, let the insurance industry further undermine healthcare, and undermined environmental regulations just to secure more favorable trading with China.

don't republicans campaign on doing those things? Isn't that like blaming republicans for taxing the rich?

(December 22, 2012 at 3:59 am)Polaris Wrote: The fact they have propped Wall Street up, continued in the mistreatment of POWs, murdered thousands of civilians including children in drone strikes, have been determined to aid in the dissolution of governments which have caused thousands of civilians deaths, deported more immigrants than ever before, let the insurance industry further undermine healthcare, and undermined environmental regulations just to secure more favorable trading with China.

In California where I live, they have additionally made extreme cuts to social programs and education, which already ranks amongst the worst in the nation.

You may be fine with settling for less than what we deserve, but I'm not and I will not settle for the the conservative horseshit the Democrats think they can slip past us.

As fucked up as the Democratic party may be, how do you think this would compare to what the Republicans would do if given half a chance? Do we need to do a comparision of 8 years under Democrat Clinton vs. 8 years under Republican Bush?

The Democrats have gotten more conservative, I'll give you that. Clinton's strategy was to maintain the base Democrat positions but adopt a few popular Republican positions. Obama has tried to do this as well, but the Republican party has gotten so extreme that unless you're as batshit crazy they are, they scream "Socialist!"

(December 22, 2012 at 5:47 am)cratehorus Wrote:

(December 22, 2012 at 3:59 am)Polaris Wrote: The fact they have propped Wall Street up, continued in the mistreatment of POWs, murdered thousands of civilians including children in drone strikes, have been determined to aid in the dissolution of governments which have caused thousands of civilians deaths, deported more immigrants than ever before, let the insurance industry further undermine healthcare, and undermined environmental regulations just to secure more favorable trading with China.

don't republicans campaign on doing those things? Isn't that like blaming republicans for taxing the rich?

That's what is so infuriating: the Democrats have been adopting failed GOP policy and passing it off as their own. I doubt even the conservatives' much vaunted Reagan would fit in with this new wave of conservatism infesting the Democrats.

Tara, you do know that Clinton is the President responsible for the failure of the economy, right? He let the Republicans get their way by signing their BS and we've suffered for it. The deficit reduced under Bush because of it, but it was not sustainable due to deregulating the economy.

Major fault for Bush that Obama did not also do in relation to the economy was the Iraq War. It did not affect the economic downturn, but used up resources that otherwise may have been available to get people back on their feet.

(December 21, 2012 at 12:21 pm)TaraJo Wrote: I really hate statements like that. Are you actually comparin us to places like Somalia or Ethopia and saying "We aren't really poor! Look at them!" It's like pointing to nations like Saudi Arabia or Iran and saying "Religion doesn't really have influence over our government! Look at them!" Why don't we shoot for something better than 'bottom of the barrel.'

You know the difference? The middle class here can afford to have less money. People who don't think so are just used to their comfortable lives. Well we are wracking up debt that is going to ruin the whole country. Who honestly thinks this debt is sustainable? This fiscal cliff is just a propaganda term used to force an agenda. Hey, I'm all for taxing the rich more, and that's exactly what's going to happen with the 'fiscal cliff'. Also there is a lot in the world inbetween Somalia and the US.

Quote:This fiscal cliff is just a propaganda term used to force an agenda.

Absolutely, it sounds like a rehash of Reaganomics.

(December 22, 2012 at 11:50 am)Polaris Wrote: That's what is so infuriating: the Democrats have been adopting failed GOP policy and passing it off as their own. I doubt even the conservatives' much vaunted Reagan would fit in with this new wave of conservatism infesting the Democrats.

I don't know about Reagan, but when you look at quotes from a lot of Republicans before Nixon, you get a different picture. You remember what Eisenhower said about any party that tried to end medicare or social security, right?

Quote:Tara, you do know that Clinton is the President responsible for the failure of the economy, right? He let the Republicans get their way by signing their BS and we've suffered for it. The deficit reduced under Bush because of it, but it was not sustainable due to deregulating the economy.

Sort of. Yes, Clinton let the Republicans deregulate the banking industry, but I'm not blaming anyone for causing the crash because if you look at American history, you notice that there's a crash or a depression every 20 or so years. What I blame Bush for isn't causing the crash but his response to it: prop up the wealthy bankers with huge government bailouts and don't lift a finger for all the honest people who were lured into predatory loans by those wealthy bankers. Which is kinda the Republican economic philosophy in a nutshell: help the wealthy, screw the public.

Also, worth noting, as much as Clinton may have done things wrong, can you imagine a Republican doing better? I can't. As much as the Democrats are further to the right than I'd like, I'll still be voting for them because the Republicans are so batshit crazy, I'm kinda terrified what they'll do if they're given real power. Remember how far right Bush was? Just 4 years after he left office, he would be considered a moderate Republican.

If there are any ways to move the Democrats to the left and do so without handing political power over to the insane asylum that the Republican party has turned into, I'm all ears. I do think we could stand to change our electoral process in a way to promote third parties, but I don't see that happening any time soon, and it's going to have to start at a state/local level.

I really hate hearing everyone say "Both parties are the same!" It's a sign of blatent stupidity. I mean, just look at the platforms of both parties, presented side by side, and you'll see what I mean. Fact is, I have a lot to gain if employment or housing discrimination against GLBT people is passed. The Republicans ain't gonna do that for me. I have a lot to gain if Pell Grants continue and the Republicans want to do away with that. I get health care from a center that's partially funded by grants which, again, the Republican party puts at risk. And those are just a few of the issues I can think of now. Part of the reason I vote Democrat is because, given their track record, I'm confident that their position on future issues will be more in line with my beliefs.

http://compare2012.returncontrol.com/?ut...dium=email