Quote:Is This Your Brain On God?
More than half of adult Americans report they have had a spiritual experience that changed their lives. Now, scientists from universities like Harvard, Pennsylvania and Johns Hopkins are using new technologies to analyse the brains of people who claim they have touched the spiritual — from Christians who speak in tongues to Buddhist monks to people who claim to have had near-death experiences. Hear what they have discovered in this controversial field, as the science of spirituality continues to evolve.

coutesy NPR

(January 1, 2013 at 7:12 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(January 1, 2013 at 7:05 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Really??? Don't you want to live forever. Would you trust a God who could not raise the dead.

And what does that have to do with your outright lies regarding bringing the dead back to life?

Hi,

what I am suggesting is if there is a God, as I know there is, what is so strange about the claim that the dead can be raised. It is 100% logical that God can raise the dead.

FAH Wrote:Really??? Don't you want to live forever. Would you trust a God who could not raise the dead.

Blearch!

What a disgusting thought!! And how can one trust something that exists only in your mind??

(January 1, 2013 at 7:17 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

(January 1, 2013 at 7:12 am)Zen Badger Wrote: And what does that have to do with your outright lies regarding bringing the dead back to life?

Hi,

what I am suggesting is if there is a God, as I know there is, what is so strange about the claim that the dead can be raised. It is 100% logical that God can raise the dead.

No, you made a straight claim that people you personally know were able to bring the dead back to life.

And I am calling you a damned liar.

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

(December 31, 2012 at 8:23 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Also, I want to speak to the doctors that reported people being resurrected from the dead. If that doesn't scream "strike them off the medical register" I don't know what does.

What is so strange about a God who can raise the dead.

It's impossible until proven otherwise. Sorry, but the laws of nature are pretty clear.

All I ask for is evidence, nothing more. Is that so bad?

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: In the circles I frequent this sort of thing happens often, not with me personally but with pastors I know of. If a person truely believes in God they believe he can raise the dead. Jesus said in the bible we would do the same works he did one of the things Jesus did was raise the dead.

A lovely story, but irrelevant. Witnesses to so called miracles are no evidence of said miracles. Hard, testable evidence is all I accept.

A hypothetical for you that uses your own logic:

A man you don't know comes up to you in the street and says you have contracted a rare form of an antibiotic resistant bacteria (let's say c.diff for recognition purposes). He asks for $100 so that he can give you an anti-biotic that he says will cure you.

Do you accept his word on blind faith, or would you require evidence that his claims were true?

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: I hope one day you come to your senses, and look at the evidence rather than express your opinions on facts.

I am truely sorry that you think I am doing this when it is in fact you who are doing it.

I was brought up in the UK and educated at an excellent school and an excellent university thereafter. One thing that was drilled into me was never take anything at face value. Always ask for facts to back up the claims. Thus far, I can see nonevidence to back yours up, merely empty posturing and an increasingly negative tone towards me.

All I've done is ask for some evidence for your claims, nothing more. You can't honestly believe you've presented some can you?

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: What more can a Christian do than record miracles,

record FACTS & EVIDENCE.

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: you say they should be struck of the register because they say they have a recorded example of a dead raising.

Where is this evidence? A doctor saying he 'saw someone being raised from the dead'? Where are the ECG scans? Where is the neuroscientists opinion, or the cardio-surgeons notes? Where is the EVIDENCE?

See my hypothetical above. I am not in the business of accepting eye witnesses accounts of scientific miracles without evidence to back them up, and neither should you be. That's not how science works, not how medicine works, not how reality works. Im sorry, but if we're going to get into a discussion on facts, lets start there.

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Why don't you start to believe facts rather than sprout of your atheist opinions on people.

I have type 1 diabetes. This has been proven to me by a consultant endocrinologist who laid out to me what tests they were going to perform to prove this was the case (keytone levels, HBA1C test, bloods to determine whether my eyelets of langerhans had been cannibalised by my own immune system).

The results of these tests were plain for me to see; I have T1 diabetes. The symptoms explained the results of the tests.

EVIDENCE works great when it exists and can be used to back up the claim. I have no idea what an 'atheist opinion' is, so ill assume its a sleight of hand insult.

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: What sins do you commit that are so great you are prepared to ignore facts.

sleight of hand insult. thanks.

(January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Christians are people too with brains and an interlect we just know what God has done in our lives, and the lives of others. What evidence do you have to support your claims that these people are crazy, it is just your opinion, nothing more.

I totally agree. Christians are people, and what I am stating is my opinion. However, my evidence that they are crazy is the LACK OF EVIDENCE they are providing to support their claims.

It is not sinful, nor is it delusional, to critique and question someone who believes they have seen a miracle.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I have seen and read none, so by virtue I am skeptical and will continue to question and critique the claims until evidence is provided.

EDITED for spelling (iPad!)

(January 1, 2013 at 7:36 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I have seen and read none, so by virtue I am skeptical and will continue to question and critique the claims until evidence is provided.

How can you continue to say you have seen no evidence of miracles when I provided you a site that records them. http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp Like I said what more can a Christian do to prove miracles. Many people here keep saying, "Why don't you show evidence", or "where are the records". They are there on that site. Not every miracle that has ever been performed has medical records, or has the permission of the person to publish it. The person I prayed for, who was healed instantly, I left to them selves when they were healed, it seems rude to mess in a persons life, and demand they publish their healing. Some people do some don't.

Also sorry if I appear to be rude to you, or judgmental, it is the easiest fault for a Christian to present to people. I just get frustrated when I present my lifes experience, or present recorded facts, and people reason it all away and say it is not good enough. Life is not all about science and scientific method, not every fact can be proved take for example my stories at http://www.futureandahope.net about God speaking, or communicating no one can prove that, you need to just trust people some times. Rather than call me a lier have a little bit of faith. Some times you need to put faith in the character of the person who is speaking. Not every Christian is in it for money, I personally do not take donations. I have no reason to present the gospel message other than I have found it to be fact.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote:

(January 1, 2013 at 7:36 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I have seen and read none, so by virtue I am skeptical and will continue to question and critique the claims until evidence is provided.

How can you continue to say you have seen no evidence of miracles when I provided you a site that records them. http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp Like I said what more can a Christian do to prove miracles.

And I continue to retort to you that so-called eye witness accounts are not evidence. I refer you to my hypothetical above which you haven't responded to.

A conference of 200~ self-confessed believers, who happen to be doctors, and who happen to believe in miracles who also report to 'see' miracles screams of bias.

I am wholly skeptical of every claim that does not have repeatable, testable, and ultimately verifiable data to back it up, whether they be mundane drugs designed to alleviate minor illnesses, or miracles that claim to ressurect people from the dead.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Many people here keep saying, "Why don't you show evidence", or "where are the records". They are there on that site.

No, they're not. It is clear that we have vastly different perceptions of what we see as evidence. I mean this as no insult when I say I have set the bar considerably higher than you.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Not every miracle that has ever been performed has medical records, or has the permission of the person to publish it. The person I prayed for, who was healed instantly, I left to them selves when they were healed, it seems rude to mess in a persons life, and demand they publish their healing. Some people do some don't.

If it seems rude to mess with a persons life, then why did you pray for them in the first place? Or is it ok to pray for them, but then not ask questions are even think about the potential results afterwards?

I'm sorry, but medical science has advanced on empirical evidence that evidences these steps forward through double blind trials, the publishing (and critique) of data, and ultimately the continuing review of the results over decades (potentially) to find flaws/errors and rule them out.

If miracles could be proven to occur, then they would be akin to a wonder cure, and the world would surely benefit from their occurrence (including myself). This Is why I and others repeatedly ask for empirical evidence and not a wishy washy account of "well, I know this guy who knows this guy who was healed through prayer." I'm sorry, but that type of 'evidence' won't cut it here, nor in reality per se.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Also sorry if I appear to be rude to you, or judgmental, it is the easiest fault for a Christian to present to people. I just get frustrated when I present my lifes experience, or present recorded facts, and people reason it all away and say it is not good enough.

I don't appreciate being labeled as a sinner for not agreeing with you. I have laid no insult at your feet, and I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I must also say, as per all the above and my previous posts, you haven't supplied any 'facts', rather opinion, anecdote, and unverifiable claims.

Again, I mean this not as an insult when I say that your life experiences do not mean a thing to me when it comes to providing evidence for the miraculous.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Life is not all about science and scientific method,

Reality would argue the contrary.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: not every fact can be proved

They are 'facts' precisely because they have been proven. If a 'fact' has not been proven (as is the case with the miraculous), then the fault is with the person ascribing the label, not the term.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: take for example my stories at http://www.futureandahope.net about God speaking, or communicating no one can prove that, you need to just trust people some times. Rather than call me a lier have a little bit of faith.

The key word being 'stories'.

Look, I have no qualms with people believing in miracles. if you believe that they work and exist, then fine, that's up to you. However, you need to factor in that we're dealing with people's lives here.

Another hypothetical: a T1 diabetic such as myself is advised by someone who believes they can cure me with prayer not to take their medicine (insulin). Without insulin,mid be dead within a week, maybe 2. However, the person believes they can cure me with prayer and that I won't need my insulin again.

What would you do?

It's not a black and white issue. What it is is false hope until proven otherwise, and false hope and be as dangerous as it is comforting to those desperate for a last way out as they stare death down.

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Some times you need to put faith in the character of the person who is speaking.

It is the claim itself which is to be scrutinised first, with the character of the claimant being taken into account to judge possible patterns (such as bias and background in making equivelent claims).

(January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm)FutureAndAHope Wrote: Not every Christian is in it for money, I personally do not take donations. I have no reason to present the gospel message other than I have found it to be fact.

Again, that's fine. I have never accused you of doing whatever you do for money. But when your beliefs begin to impact on others, for good or ill,,then I take note and begin to question, as is my right.

All I'm asking for is evidence, the same evidence you would ask for should a stranger come up to you in the street and claim you were about to die from a deadly bacterial infection that was untreatable save for his own medical cure that only he has access to. That's it.

(January 1, 2013 at 7:59 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: All I'm asking for is evidence, the same evidence you would ask for should a stranger come up to you in the street and claim you were about to die from a deadly bacterial infection that was untreatable save for his own medical cure that only he has access to. That's it.

As far as I am concerned doctors documenting cases of divine healings, with before and after shots, is enough evidence for me. And there are enough test cases there to say that healing happens frequently for people, it is not a one off isolated incodent. Many cases of healing go unreported, as a case in point the person I prayed for.

You said you are sick with Diabeties, would you like me to pray for you, God may well heal you and you will have your evidence first hand.

You are making a gross irrational leap when you go from a person being (apparently) healed straight to goddidit. Even if you listed a thousand, a million, cases of sickness of one sort or another somehow being cured, that's nowhere near evidence that a god was responsible. And you don't even have that - all you have are anecdotes, urban myths at best. That you find them convincing enough to be sufficient evidence for you merely demonstrates the flimsiness of your beliefs, ie they rely on the flimsiest and the most absurd of stories to make them real.

(January 1, 2013 at 11:18 pm)Stimbo Wrote: ie they rely on the flimsiest and the most absurd of stories to make them real.

I am sorry you think what God does is absurd. Well you are living on shaky ground, one day the flood of death will come, and will you be ready for it's journey, you can ignore what people tell you for perfect evidence, but you may never get what you demand. I am no fool, I know who I am, I know what I have experienced. I trust others who have experienced the same. What do you want me to become a drinking, porno loving, fool. Or should I remain a God fearing husband, who experiences the miraculous often. I choose to stay with what I have. You can go to hell if you want, ignoring all the facts for your precious double blind studies, but I choose to live in the truth, and respect God's law and rule.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;