I think also Stimbo the fact remains that theists are incapable of proving their, god-boy/ lord/ or whatever this deity thingy is supposed to be, actually exists.

Physical evidence is still missing. Only "evidence" we have so far is that it is all in the mind of the believer.

(January 1, 2013 at 9:46 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Yes its perfect timing, and I accept the many points made but I hold my position that because the God I believe in can never be proved or disproved by science EVER because He does not exist anywhere science can search or even have the tools to search. It cannot be proved or disproved. God is not like any other phenomenon that science can explore and the acceptance of a belief or not in God does not in itself hamper science from progression or making definative statements about what it is equiped to deal with. I do not try to shift the burden of proof rather i contend that in this situation there is no burden of proof on either party unless one party sets out to prove to the other that are wrong. I do not set out to prove you are wrong so no burden accepted.

I agree that it is not only okay but absolutely necessary to proceed with operational beliefs for which you have only a hunch or a subjective rationale. It may also be possible to hold these private beliefs in such a way that it would not interfere with ones science literacy or even ones ability to contribute to science. But do you really hold your belief in god this way? Doesn't your belief in the bible as a source of facts about god's will create at least potentially insurmountable challenges your ability to judge what theory the facts really support?

For example, do you find that abiogenic life formation and evolution any problem? How about the possibility to have moral experience without a godly do and don't do list? Big bang? Are there any assertions made in the bible that you find incompatible with the best scientific evidence? Just wondering.

(January 1, 2013 at 8:42 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I have been very clear about this proof question upto now, I have admitted and accepted that I can provide NO proof. And given the length of the discussion over eons of time it would be incredably improbable that I would come up with a new one you haven't come across before. I have made it clear that I see no more burden of proof in me Saying I believe in God or you saying you don't. But likewise for all the bluster and fancy word play. No one on this forum can provide any Proof that God does not exist. We both know the proof question is a dead end. I would suggest that people make the decision to change from belief or not on much more mundane and subjective experiences , behaviour patterns and thinking patterns and then look for proofs to justify their intuited position on the matter.

I have never believed in god and have never seen anything that would make me start.

I reiterate..

Physical evidence is still missing. Only "evidence" we have so far is that it is all in the mind of the believer.

And this is what the majority of atheists hold to ... personal experience is just "all in the mind of the believer" where the non-believer is looking EVERYWHERE and still comes up empty.

(December 30, 2012 at 7:07 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: As anyone well aquainted with logical reasoning knows, its impossible to prove the non-existence of something. So if a proof that God does not exist is impossible, does this mean that beyond the proof of balance of probability ( which has seen many an innocent person executed wrongly ) based on our current level of science, any belief in athiesm or theism ultimately is a faith choice on two sides of same coin.

You cant prove their isn't an giant invisible snarfwidget surrounding the Andromeda galaxy either. How much time do you waste trying to disprove that naked assertion?

There is no "two sides of the coin".

There is only human imagination in our species history inventing gods, dumping them for newer superstitions, revising their myths and changing the details so they can remain credulously relevant despite obvious reality.

You don't spend time trying to debunk the myths of ancient Egypt or their false belief that the sun was a thinking being.

You have a pet deity, not because it is real, but because it is merely emotionally appealing to you. Just like Allah is appealing to Muslims, and Vishnu is to Hindus. Just like the ancient Egyptians wanted so badly to believe that the sun was a magical super hero. But what no human has produced is evidence for their invisible super hero claims.

It makes much more sense that god/s/God/deities/ are merely the products of human imagination and wishful thinking.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"Allah is the one true god because you cant disprove it"
"Vishnu is the one true god because you cant disprove it"
"The sun is a god because you cant disprove it"
"My giant snarfwiget is real because you cant disprove it"

That is called shifting the burden of proof. You would expect evidence if someone with another pet deity other than yours, so do not expect us to swallow your special pleading blindly.

The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more god claim than you do. Understand why you reject all other claims, besides your own, and you will understand why we reject your god claim as well.

And atheism is no more a faith than bald is a hair color, or off is a tv channel. You don't need faith to know that Santa isn't real. You don't need faith to know the sun is not a deity. You yourself reject other god claims, but what is causing you to do that, isn't "faith", but reason that causes you to question the gods of others. You simply refuse to aim that same logic at your own claims. Look in the mirror, hopefully you can pull yourself out of that needless self inflicted delusion.

Many of us here once believed, including me. It is not impossible to grow up and give up on your invisible friend. We did it, and you can too. It isn't a bad thing. It merely means you can mentally mature if you choose.

(December 31, 2012 at 10:02 pm)Aractus Wrote:

(December 31, 2012 at 6:41 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Anyone here who has a belief that God doesn't exist, please speak up.

I'm GLAD you asked! You mean like this?

(December 31, 2012 at 10:34 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: I believe that there is no god for the same reason I believe there is no elephant in my kitchen, lack of evidence for the positive position.

Yes, thanks! So, that's one so far.

---

(January 1, 2013 at 10:55 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(January 1, 2013 at 9:27 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: What we can do is prove why the Christian god does not exist, or any other god thought up by man since the dawn of civilization.

We can? Hot damn, I've been wondering if that would ever prove possible. Go ahead. Whatcha got?

Theodicy contradicts both itself and observable reality.

Quote:I have admitted and accepted that I can provide NO proof.

BINGO! That is the first admission that leads one on to the road to recovery. We promise you wont barbecue kittens or go on a killing spree by simply accepting that there is no god, or even a need to believe in one. If you have no proof, that should tell you something. It should tell you, because you have no proof, it is not a good position to hold.

Just like the Egyptians had no proof that the sun was a god. Just like you reject claims of Muslims or Hindus. It isn't a matter of their human rights. All the other god claims you reject we reject yours for the same reason. NO PROOF.

You personally I am quite sure, like and love people who hold deity claims you don't find credible. And it is the same reason we reject your claim as well. It isn't that we cant like or love people who make claims we find absurd, it is that we do not find the claim credible. For the same reason you don't find the claims of other deity believers credible. We only reject one more god claim than you do, and for the same reason, NO PROOF.

(January 2, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

Quote:I have admitted and accepted that I can provide NO proof.

BINGO! That is the first admission that leads one on to the road to recovery. We promise you wont barbecue kittens or go on a killing spree by simply accepting that there is no god, or even a need to believe in one. If you have no proof, that should tell you something. It should tell you, because you have no proof, it is not a good position to hold.

Just like the Egyptians had no proof that the sun was a god. Just like you reject claims of Muslims or Hindus. It isn't a matter of their human rights. All the other god claims you reject we reject yours for the same reason. NO PROOF.

You personally I am quite sure, like and love people who hold deity claims you don't find credible. And it is the same reason we reject your claim as well. It isn't that we cant like or love people who make claims we find absurd, it is that we do not find the claim credible. For the same reason you don't find the claims of other deity believers credible. We only reject one more god claim than you do, and for the same reason, NO PROOF.

Proof being proofs you will accept as proof so don't uncork the wine yet

Quote:There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

(January 2, 2013 at 6:01 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote:

(January 2, 2013 at 5:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote: BINGO! That is the first admission that leads one on to the road to recovery. We promise you wont barbecue kittens or go on a killing spree by simply accepting that there is no god, or even a need to believe in one. If you have no proof, that should tell you something. It should tell you, because you have no proof, it is not a good position to hold.

Just like the Egyptians had no proof that the sun was a god. Just like you reject claims of Muslims or Hindus. It isn't a matter of their human rights. All the other god claims you reject we reject yours for the same reason. NO PROOF.

You personally I am quite sure, like and love people who hold deity claims you don't find credible. And it is the same reason we reject your claim as well. It isn't that we cant like or love people who make claims we find absurd, it is that we do not find the claim credible. For the same reason you don't find the claims of other deity believers credible. We only reject one more god claim than you do, and for the same reason, NO PROOF.

Proof being proofs you will accept as proof so don't uncork the wine yet

Quote:There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Don't give me that crap. You have uncorked the wine(actually when you win a race it is usually champagne or sparkling apple juice).

You "uncork" the "BULLSHIT" Brand skepticism when it comes to the claims you reject.

I don't think you drink the stupidity of flat earthers. So when you claim, or anyone claims that they have a Santa for adults, I am not going to lose much sleep wondering if I pre maturely uncorked my champagne.

Do you still keep the bottles of Thor and Osirus and Vishnu in your wine cellar?

(January 2, 2013 at 6:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 2, 2013 at 6:01 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: Proof being proofs you will accept as proof so don't uncork the wine yet

Don't give me that crap. You have uncorked the wine(actually when you win a race it is usually champagne or sparkling apple juice).

You "uncork" the "BULLSHIT" Brand skepticism when it comes to the claims you reject.

I don't think you drink the stupidity of flat earthers. So when you claim, or anyone claims that they have a Santa for adults, I am not going to lose much sleep wondering if I pre maturely uncorked my champagne.

Do you still keep the bottles of Thor and Osirus and Vishnu in your wine cellar?

http://newcovenant.blogspot.co.uk/2004/0...proof.html
"This is a common mistake that is made by the purveyors of atheistic naturalism - that of their point of view somehow being the benchmark by which all other views must measure against..... That an atheist considers the claims of a theist to be extraordinary is irrelevant. They are assuming a benchmark which they have no way of proving as valid." 

you don't give a shit about proving your position so why should I feel I am somehow in the need to prove anything to you in order to hold my position .