And Tiberious, if God can do the impossible, the word "impossible" implies going beyond a limit" yet you claim that they claim that god IS limited, so even in this case it negates their definition of a limited "all powerful" god.

Like a human being 100 feet tall is impossible, that would be beyond the limit of the normal range of the average human height.

Look I agree that there have been tons of theologians and philosophers who have tried to square it whatever way they can. But it is still a broken concept no matter how you arrange the arguments.

It is basically saying he is unlimited in his limits. That is a contradiction. Doing the impossible means going beyond limits.

It is just a way of humans clinging to a superstition and trying to make excuses to cling to it.

(January 5, 2013 at 7:23 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I agree that the concept of a "completely unlimited power" is illogical as the concept of a square circle. Which is why they have to say " a truly all-powerful being could preform the impossible".

Who says this? Where? Citations please?

Quote:Of course, and the reason it works is because they have already swallowed "God can do whatever he wants", which allows them to move the goal posts. Of course we cant nail them on that definition because it is called "making shit up and pulling it out of your ass".

Look, I don't know what kind of Christians you've talked to, but I haven't met one that says God can do whatever he wants. I hold that you are just creating strawmen.

Quote:Hence yes, multiple meanings of the concept because when you call them on one, they move to another. It suits their emotional desire for a super hero.

Right...but if they move to another which is logically valid, what do you do then?

Quote:Thats how the theist game works.

I'm sorry that you seem to have only met idiot theists.

(January 5, 2013 at 7:31 pm)Brian37 Wrote: It doesn't violate "omnipotence" from their point of view, that's why it works so well to the theist, they can play a perpetual game of dodge ball with it.

Reality on the other hand isn't our personal wishes and we are not entitled to our own facts.

It doesn't violate omnipotence from my point of view either...hence why I asked you about it. Care for an actual answer this time? Why do you think it violates omnipotence?

(January 5, 2013 at 7:43 pm)Brian37 Wrote: And Tiberious, if God can do the impossible, the word "impossible" implies going beyond a limit" yet you claim that they claim that god IS limited, so even in this case it negates their definition of a limited "all powerful" god.

Your argument is invalid, since it is never claimed in Christianity that God can do the impossible, so there is no contradiction or negation with the limits placed upon God. Agreed, if the Christian God could do the impossible, it would be limitless and you'd have an actual point, but I've seen no scripture that supports that idea. Please present some.

Quote:Look I agree that there have been tons of theologians and philosophers who have tried to square it whatever way they can. But it is still a broken concept no matter how you arrange the arguments.

It's not a broken concept. If we hold omnipotence as the ability to do everything that is logically possible, then I don't see what the problem is with it. If we further hold omnipotence as the ability to do everything logically possible, except that which goes against one's nature, I likewise cannot see any problems with that definition.

Quote:It is basically saying he is unlimited in his limits. That is a contradiction. Doing the impossible means going beyond limits.

No. No no no no no. For the last time, stop using one definition just because it suits your argument. We've already been over absolute omnipotence, and why it cannot possibly exist. There is no point in going over it again. I am not talking about absolute omnipotence; and neither are any Christians (and neither does Christianity). What Christianity says is that God can do anything apart from that which goes against his nature. In other words, he can do the logically possible, but cannot commit sin because by his nature he is sinless and perfect.

(January 5, 2013 at 1:53 pm)jonb Wrote: Why is it christians show a liking for how many angels can stand on the tip of a needle type debates, is it that they are uncomfortable with the real world?

Because that way they can avoid facts.

(January 5, 2013 at 10:59 am)Mark 13:13 Wrote: This is not designed to some attempt at discussion on the belief in GOD so please drop your guard a little bit. I wan't you to make (what in you belief system is ) a stupendously stupid assumption that the Transendental personal GOD of the theist exists to see whether from that position one could answer the...

Can God make a rock He couldn't lift?

By saying yes and he has already done so it's called Free Will.

Qualified by saying before He made it He being omniscient already seen the results and decided the results merited creating said rock. He remains All powerful as the He can lift the stone but the only constraint is His Divine Nature.

I think you should type slower and think about what youre saying more as sentences like "By saying yes and he has already done so its called free will." and "He being omniscient already seen the results and decided the results merited creating said rock." are very confusing to read.
Im not being condecending, im not the best at spelling or at english in general but i do try and phrase things clearly.

I think youre trying to ask could god create free will, and youre saying its like god creating a rock he himself cant move.
My answer is i dont know because i dont know what god can do.
Your question seems to be not against or for the existence of god but more arguing against the existence of unlimited power if like you said an unlimited power was unlimited it could create something which limits its own power therefore making it limited. Thats all i can really take from this question.

(January 5, 2013 at 11:05 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Look, I don't know what kind of Christians you've talked to, but I haven't met one that says God can do whatever he wants. I hold that you are just creating strawmen.

You need to get out more, Boss. Maybe visit the trailer parks of Alabama?


http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/2002...-Were-Not/

Quote:Because God is God, he can do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. If he wants to create a planet, or a galaxy, or even another universe, he just says the word and it happens.

There are some really whacked out xtians out there.

We have our own "god does whatever he wants- and further wtf are you going to do about it" christians here on these boards Tibs...lol. -Some- christians have no problem with this concept, -some- do, and christianity "says" whatever any one of them happens to be mouthing at any given time.

By the by, Matthew, 19:26. Straight from the man himself.
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
http://bible.cc/matthew/19-26.htm

Maybe he should have phrased that differently, or added some specifying remarks (like the ones that you or apologists might cram in his mouth)? Do I think that impossible things are possible, personally, no. But this verse is why some christians do (and why they believe their god can do those impossible things)

Quote:Maybe he should have phrased that differently

You mean "jesus" made a mistake?

Perish the thought eh? IMHO, though, no, "jesus" didn't make a mistake so much as had a habit.....

Mark 14:36
"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
http://bible.cc/mark/14-36.htm

The chorus follows suit.

Luke 1:37
For nothing is impossible with God."
http://bible.cc/luke/1-37.htm

There are, of course, dozens of these proclamations, scattered throughout the entirety of both the OT and the NT. There are a great many more stories to the effect. These are simply some of the most direct and irreconcilable verses on the matter.

(January 5, 2013 at 11:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/2002...-Were-Not/

Quote:Because God is God, he can do whatever he wants to do whenever he wants to do it. If he wants to create a planet, or a galaxy, or even another universe, he just says the word and it happens.

Do they mean that literally, or do they mean within the limits of what he can already do. This appears to be a problem in this thread; everyone takes things too literally.

I mean, you can apply the phrase "he does what he wants" to humans too, but we never mean it literally. We mean, "he does what he wants...when he can".

So the question is, when a theist says that their God can do what he wants, do they mean it literally, or are they talking figuratively in order to express the power their God supposedly has.

Quote:If we hold omnipotence as the ability to do everything that is logically possible, then I don't see what the problem is with it.

Again, once they swallow "God can do what he wants", then they can move the goal posts, so in that context, sure it does work.

---

(January 6, 2013 at 5:40 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(January 5, 2013 at 11:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: http://www.keepbelieving.com/sermon/2002...-Were-Not/

Do they mean that literally, or do they mean within the limits of what he can already do. This appears to be a problem in this thread; everyone takes things too literally.

I mean, you can apply the phrase "he does what he wants" to humans too, but we never mean it literally. We mean, "he does what he wants...when he can".

So the question is, when a theist says that their God can do what he wants, do they mean it literally, or are they talking figuratively in order to express the power their God supposedly has.

It doesn't matter.

"When he can" if taken literally, makes no sense because he is all powerful which would mean "all the time or whenever he feels like it", not limited to "when he can".

"When he can" if only taken metaphorically would also mean nothing because it does nothing to go to empirical evidence.

In the end both are part of the same tactic, when it doesn't work switch.

Neither of these do anything to make such a claim definable to testable degree and are merely the imaginations of those who invent such concepts.