[The Christian] does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us

C S Lewis

typical non answer to a question not asked in the face of a valid point

(January 28, 2013 at 11:27 am)missluckie26 Wrote: typical non answer to a question not asked in the face of a valid point

Please make a valid point

(January 28, 2013 at 1:27 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 28, 2013 at 11:27 am)missluckie26 Wrote: typical non answer to a question not asked in the face of a valid point

Please make a valid point

You know what she meant. All you've been doing is stating what you believe and responding to opposing arguments not with arguments of your own but with distractions; condescending dismissals, insults, faux-pity, and so on (and you even have the lack of self-awareness to get offended when you think somebody does any of these things to you). That's normal behavior for somebody who's having trouble coming up for coherent rationalizations for their beliefs--and it's disturbingly hilarious that you defend these tactics by simply stating that atheism is so far from being valid that it don't deserve an actual response. If that's what you really think, what are you doing here to start with?

(January 28, 2013 at 1:27 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 28, 2013 at 11:27 am)missluckie26 Wrote: typical non answer to a question not asked in the face of a valid point

Please make a valid point

Sorry thought I'd made my point clear.. Please note that I'm definitely not a debator, just someone trying to get you to see what I see, in you.

I guess I see my valid Point as being that just because I'm an athiest doesn't mean my viewpoint on life is bleak, nor does it make me a cruel, unhappy, or negative. As a matter of fact, all of those attributes are what you yourself are currently engaged in, yet I see you in denial because your view point of the earth is overshadowed by the illusions provided by your religion.

Example:
"He deserved what he got, and if he didn't then he's goin to hell anyways."

Quote: Fear is what rules the guilty.

*Cruelty. Who makes you the judge of your brothers? A book, written by man. I don't care much if this is what you think as I don't feel the need to dictate others' thoughts--but these thoughts by people with your world view have been enacted into law and people are dying because of it. You see nothing wrong with the vindication, and I have an issue with that. People are dying, who even you yourself say have hope through Jesus in repentance. Yet you see their deaths as a liberation into another life (allbeit eternal damnation) that you have absolutely no proof for, while we're all horrified at your sense of 'justice'.

Quote:I find it interesting that our ('western'?) criminal Justice systems are based on the religious concept of forgiveness. The irreligious answer to injustice is the chopping off of hands/ tit for tat vigilante type justice. There is no real justification I can see in a secular court for forgiveness.

If you consider the death penalty, forgiveness--then all right. I can't see how you can say that tit/tat vigilante type justice is attributed to irreligiousness. The society that comes to mind when you mention this chopping off of hands nonsensical justice--is Muslim cultures (hence religious based). As someone said earlier--just take a look at an athiest sense of justice by looking at some of the least violent nations in the world such as Denmark. If you would please provide examples to your statement of a degrading of society being directly related to irreligiousness, I'd very much appreciate it as I see the complete opposite.

Example of Negativity:
"There will always be evil in the world, pray away your troubles and concerns to the almighty and know that justice will indeed come, just not in this lifetime."

Quote:If you accept that injustice happens, then you live by that. You have less reason to be just yourself, because that would to be to put yourself at a disadvantage in how you understand the world to operate. Do you see how this would be different if you understood there to be complete justice? How a person rationalising justice prevailing might have a totally different outlook to yourself?

Attribute I see in you is ultimately: negativity. My reasoning for this is that evil is always overcome able, and there is a reason to fight it in this life. What's more is there's actually more of a reason to live life justly because this is the only justice available. It's real justice, whatever justice is found on this earth--and whatever injustices that are endured are not a reason to be bleak or negative about because humanity is always evolving and learning from its' mistakes.
I see in you, a complacency in the standard. If you were just negative about it (negative being the opposite of positive whose definition is a good, positive, or constructive attribute) then fine I could deal with your viewpoint, but it's that very viewpoint that keeps you from action in dealing with situations in the real world, with real people and real issues.
It's like if I said, hey there's wolves eating our sheep, our food staple, and you say, "There has always been wolves, there will always be wolves, I'm going to pray that I won't feel pain when I lose a lamb, and be happy with the fact that it happens because it's exactly how it should happen in this just world." --then you go about your business happy as a clam.
So I have to go on my own and actually fight wolves with a stick because you're off in your own world praying to someone I don't think even exists, then getting a false sense of security and 'happiness' from it.

I can't see how it's a disadvantage in any way, to see life as it is rather than what it would be if there was a bigger sense of justice at work. I see injustice and want to figure out why it happened and stop it--you see injustice and think it's just a part of what we have to deal with in life but it will indeed be rectified not in this life. You might not have to worry about it then, but it doesn't change the fact that there was an injustice done, and the fact that you don't want to deal with it by giving your accountability up to god.

Quote:I'm not saying it's impossible for you to know happiness. I'm saying the bigger picture is bleak ... because you can't reason beyond the ultimate fact of injustice which over arches your world view.

I'm going to say that your sense of happiness is false, because you can't reason beyond the ultimate presence of a justice not of this earth, which over arches your entire world view and negates any reasoning for rectifying the situation in this life because you believe without evidence that there's justice in the next life.

No point to make then.

If you don't have anything of value to contribute, you should consider fucking off.

(January 28, 2013 at 11:27 am)missluckie26 Wrote: typical non answer to a question not asked in the face of a valid point

Well, he's right.

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(January 29, 2013 at 4:45 pm)Ryantology Wrote: If you don't have anything of value to contribute, you should consider fucking off.

Maybe you should have told yourself that back when he was posting things of value

(January 26, 2013 at 7:49 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 26, 2013 at 3:31 pm)Cinjin Wrote: For me the fact that he is not all-knowing and omnipotent only serves to further unmask the story.

You know that your logic fails badly right. That's OK then. Carry on

lol
You're hardly the one to be judging logic Frodo. lol - The very idea of you condemning me on those grounds is absurd. But hey, carry on.

No matter how one attempts to work out this issue, the crux of christianity is God's perfection. A perfect deity has to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, as most christians I've spoken to have a habit of declaring, and for him to be perfect this is true. With this comes questions as to the absurdity that reality could possibly have been created by such a creature, unless it's all a cosmic joke and said god has a very twisted sense of humour.

If God is not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he's fallible, which means that his laws and manner by which he supposedly governs the universe are fallible and liable to interpretation, which means that the bible's laws can be subject to scrutiny and rational processing, which lets face it, we already do. We don't enslave people anymore, we don't stone children to death when they misbehave, we don't force rapists to marry their victims, we don't sacrifice people and animals to imaginary people int he sky.

To be perfect, God must be capable of everything, or be nothing.