(February 24, 2013 at 1:56 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Drich, have you noticed how the tone of the conversation changed in proportion to the number of atheists? Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I have, but in the end 'they' are the reason we should be here.

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(February 24, 2013 at 3:00 am)Ryantology Wrote: Can you tell us what evil God saw in the hearts of toddlers, infants and even fetuses, so that you can justify your God's many holocausts?

I think it should be obvious, as many of the passages tell you. That the people who were given over to be wiped out, possed a great threat to the nation of Israel. This should also be made evident when a kill order was given and was not carried out. Often times the hand full of women and Children return in just a few generations to war with or capture and enslave Israel. God's purpose here was to protect the line of Christ and to full fill His promise. (without changing the will of those who apposed Him and or His people.) They and their children died with their wills intact.

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(February 24, 2013 at 11:01 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

(February 23, 2013 at 11:49 pm)Drich Wrote: This is an argument from willful ignorance.

I just finished telling you the 'believers' of the religion Christ had established were marring their "Father wives," sueing each other into slavery, and on and on...

Problems which are independent of Jesus being "in the flesh" or not. That's the point I made in my last post.

Quote:Those people like you thought the 'freedom Christ offered meant they could relish and live in their sins.

Irrelevant to whether Jesus was on Earth or not.

Quote:Paul's Job was one past the point of accepting the faith, into a viable working Christian relationship. He was bridging the gap between a works based righteousness, and a righteousness founded on Love and grace.

Which, again, I'll say was a possible thing for Paul to do even if Jesus didn't exist.

Quote:whether it be Paul or someone else there was an obvious gap between knowing of Christ/The gospel and a working relationship with the Holy Spirit.

And that gap could be closed by Paul ranting like a mystery cultist about his saviour god.

You've missed the whole point.
Christ came, and set up a following. He won people over to follow His teachings through His word, thoughts and deeds. However His teachings focoused on the foundations of freedoms that would be found living under His sacerfice. They did not speak to the details of daily living, and worship. People back then saw this freedom and went crazy with it.(In good and bad ways) It was Paul's job to reign them back in. To fully describe the freedoms of Christ, and also tie works back into the life of the believer through Love.

This is what is meant as milk and Meat of the word. Christ's core message is milk. it is what those young in the faith need to establish the relationship they need with God. Paul offered meat for the growing believer. Something a little more substanial inorder to sustain the relationship Christ's message established.

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(February 25, 2013 at 8:14 am)Question Mark Wrote: I'm liking all these assertions about afterlives, god supposed providence, and the nature of humanity, but I'm finding the lack of evidence in favour of these things somewhat curious.

What does this evidence look like?

(February 25, 2013 at 9:53 am)Drich Wrote: I think it should be obvious, as many of the passages tell you. That the people who were given over to be wiped out, possed a great threat to the nation of Israel. This should also be made evident when a kill order was given and was not carried out. Often times the hand full of women and Children return in just a few generations to war with or capture and enslave Israel. God's purpose here was to protect the line of Christ and to full fill His promise. (without changing the will of those who apposed Him and or His people.) They and their children died with their wills intact.

While rationalization of mass murder is what I expected from you, it does carries a fascinating implication: to claim that Jesus died for our sins is completely irrelevant, regardless of whether or not it actually happened.

Not only does this demonstrate, yet again, that you worship a bloodthirsty monster, but also an incompetent bungler (to protect Jesus' bloodline should require God to protect individuals, not the entire nation of Israel), it also means that Jesus sacrifice is not unique at all. There were countless millions of completely innocent children, toddlers, infants and unborn who died, according to you, for the sole reason that Jesus could one day live. They all died for my sins every bit as much as Jesus.

You've managed to show that your faith is even more fraudulent than I ever imagined.

It truly takes a sick fuck to condone human sacrifice too...

(February 25, 2013 at 12:20 am)Ryantology Wrote: You should ponder why you worship a God who is so thoroughly wicked and takes such delight in cruelty, not what evils might be in the hearts of infants and fetuses. Drich chooses to embrace evil and call it good, to hold up arbitrary cruelty and call it justice, to take jealousy and spite and call that ultimate righteousness. He'll say that genocide is not a bad thing if it is what God wants. Is that what you will also do?

Your hostility to the Word clearly shows. With your heart hardened against it, you will see only the surface letter of the Word. Because the inner spiritual significance of the Word remains closed to you, you blaspheme against it. The Word opens up when approached with humility and receptivity to the Spirit of Truth. It could do that for you if you let it.

(February 25, 2013 at 12:28 pm)Ryantology Wrote: While rationalization of mass murder is what I expected from you, it does carries a fascinating implication: to claim that Jesus died for our sins is completely irrelevant, regardless of whether or not it actually happened.

Not only does this demonstrate, yet again, that you worship a bloodthirsty monster, but also an incompetent bungler (to protect Jesus' bloodline should require God to protect individuals, not the entire nation of Israel),

Let me guess you live in washington oregon or Northern califorina right? If you don't you're missing out on your true calling. Because you have some of the most refined cherry picking skills I have ever seen, and in those states Cherry pickers are held in very high regaurd.


The answer I gave you was two fold. The First you tried to covered (protecting the line of Christ.) the second you ignored. (To full fill the Promise He had made to the Jews, In that they would be come a great nation that would bring fourth the savior of the World.) How were they Jews to become a great nation if it's enmeys were not destroyed?

Quote:it also means that Jesus sacrifice is not unique at all.

It wasn't in that billions of animals had died for the same reason. It was in that He was the last that needed to make such a sacrifice.

Quote: There were countless millions of completely innocent children, toddlers, infants and unborn who died, according to you, for the sole reason that Jesus could one day live. They all died for my sins every bit as much as Jesus.

Ah, no. "Millions" died so Isreal could become a great nation. Which is nothing new. Every 'great nation' was made 'great' by the deaths of millions of those who opposed their growth.

Quote:You've managed to show that your faith is even more fraudulent than I ever imagined.

The same could have been said about your arguement.

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(February 25, 2013 at 12:35 pm)catfish Wrote: It truly takes a sick fuck to condone human sacrifice too...

No one is talking about Human sacrifice Fishy. We are talking about one nation of people Slaughtering the indiginous people of a given land to make room for their people. Before you get even more self righteous, Try and name me a modern civialization who foundations were not built on this principle.

It's Ok not to like this behaivor now, because the western civializations are at the top of the social ecconomic food chain as it were and any toppling of a civialization would ultimatly mean the loss of one of these 'great western' civializations. But just a few generations back it was a do or die. Now subtract 4000 years, and the fate of the entire Human race could have hung in the balance. The fact of the matter is Things needed to happen Exactly as they did in order for us (Humanity at large) to be where we are now.

(Basic Sci-fi/time travel 101, a Divergence in the time line seldom result in a positive outcome.) Meaning if one of the headhunter/canibalistic tribes the Jews put down were to have over taken them, then this world (if it made it this long) would have been a very different place. and, if your panties get in a twist about what the Jews did 4000 years ago, imagine the major cultures of the world based off of one of these caniablistic tribes.

(February 25, 2013 at 3:41 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Your hostility to the Word clearly shows. With your heart hardened against it, you will see only the surface letter of the Word. Because the inner spiritual significance of the Word remains closed to you, you blaspheme against it. The Word opens up when approached with humility and receptivity to the Spirit of Truth. It could do that for you if you let it.

Platitude is the Word that immediately came to mind while reading this.

(February 25, 2013 at 5:26 pm)cato123 Wrote:

(February 25, 2013 at 3:41 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Your hostility to the Word clearly shows. With your heart hardened against it, you will see only the surface letter of the Word. Because the inner spiritual significance of the Word remains closed to you, you blaspheme against it. The Word opens up when approached with humility and receptivity to the Spirit of Truth. It could do that for you if you let it.

Platitude is the Word that immediately came to mind while reading this.

His platitude boils down to, "if you believe it, then you believe it." No reasoned assessment at all of whether it is defensible to believe it.

No matter how keenly aware a christian might be of the importance of pretending to be a rational human being in his discourse with real human beings, his christianity would still prevent him from keeping up the necessary and beneficial pretense for long.

(February 25, 2013 at 3:41 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Your hostility to the Word clearly shows. With your heart hardened against it, you will see only the surface letter of the Word. Because the inner spiritual significance of the Word remains closed to you, you blaspheme against it. The Word opens up when approached with humility and receptivity to the Spirit of Truth. It could do that for you if you let it.

I am not capable of approaching a scripture of senseless genocide with humility and an open heart.

(February 25, 2013 at 4:10 pm)Drich Wrote: The answer I gave you was two fold. The First you tried to covered (protecting the line of Christ.) the second you ignored. (To full fill the Promise He had made to the Jews, In that they would be come a great nation that would bring fourth the savior of the World.) How were they Jews to become a great nation if it's enmeys were not destroyed?

I think the more pertinent question is "why couldn't God find someplace for the Jews to become a great nation that didn't involve slaughtering thousands of their neighbors?" There were enormous parts of the world which were almost entirely uninhabited and remained so until a few centuries ago.

Quote:It wasn't in that billions of animals had died for the same reason. It was in that He was the last that needed to make such a sacrifice.

Equating children with animals?

Because the almighty creator of everything could not have possibly found a faster, more efficient way of doing that. I see no reason to even require a sacrifice. It's arbitrary and pointless. It's like, I wanna forgive you, but I can't do that until people die.

Quote:Ah, no. "Millions" died so Isreal could become a great nation. Which is nothing new. Every 'great nation' was made 'great' by the deaths of millions of those who opposed their growth.

I love how, on one hand, apologists will sequester God in the depths of metaphysics so that science can never examine (and disprove) his existence, but when this God influences the physical world, he can't do anything better than humans do. He can influence the Israelites to go psycho on their neighbors, but it is apparently far beyond his talents to convince these neighbors to ally and find common cause.

Quote:We are talking about one nation of people Slaughtering the indiginous people of a given land to make room for their people. Before you get even more self righteous, Try and name me a modern civialization who foundations were not built on this principle.

It's funny that you insist we can't judge God by human standards, yet here you are basically saying "well, we do it this way, why is it wrong for God to do it this way"? Once more, you are betraying the impotence (and pointlessness) of the God you worship. He can't do it any better than we do it ourselves.

(February 25, 2013 at 5:30 pm)Chuck Wrote: No matter how keenly aware a christian might be of the importance of pretending to be a rational human being in his discourse with real human beings, his christianity would still prevent him from keeping up the necessary and beneficial pretense for long.

Just wanted to see what kind of reaction that would get...not that I didn't already know. But even I'm surprised..."real human beings"?. I don't find it rational to demonize those with whom you disagree.

(February 25, 2013 at 9:53 am)Drich Wrote:

(February 25, 2013 at 8:14 am)Question Mark Wrote: I'm liking all these assertions about afterlives, god supposed providence, and the nature of humanity, but I'm finding the lack of evidence in favour of these things somewhat curious.

What does this evidence look like?

I should provide the evidence for you to show me? If only the world worked like that, I could finally convince people of the little girl who lives in my fire place.

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(February 25, 2013 at 3:41 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(February 25, 2013 at 12:20 am)Ryantology Wrote: You should ponder why you worship a God who is so thoroughly wicked and takes such delight in cruelty, not what evils might be in the hearts of infants and fetuses. Drich chooses to embrace evil and call it good, to hold up arbitrary cruelty and call it justice, to take jealousy and spite and call that ultimate righteousness. He'll say that genocide is not a bad thing if it is what God wants. Is that what you will also do?

Your hostility to the Word clearly shows. With your heart hardened against it, you will see only the surface letter of the Word. Because the inner spiritual significance of the Word remains closed to you, you blaspheme against it. The Word opens up when approached with humility and receptivity to the Spirit of Truth. It could do that for you if you let it.

If one is supposed to take genocide, child sacrifice, rape, pillaging, the annihilation of people's lives to prove a point, and any number of other horrific atrocities, as a form of metaphor, then the person who thought it up needs some therapy.
What in the world you could make out of what happened to Job other than the "surface word", which is that god giveth and god taketh away unless you bow and scrape like a beaten dog at his feet, I have not the least idea in the world.