(March 4, 2013 at 5:45 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

Quote:Also, your religion is not infallible either; you have two separate groups, the sunni and the shiite who each take different views over the worship of your religion.

it is not only 2 groups there are much more
How people interpret books is subject to mistakes, God will judge them according to their deeds and effort.

Prove that last statement, please. But you also proved that the Quran is not perfect, in that it is easily misinterpreted. You can say it is the fault of people, but take this instance: You have a man, a leader. He has three followers. He tells each of the followers the following: "Go forth, and gather that which is red and a fruit, and bring it to me." One goes and gets an apple. Another goes and gets a raspberry. And the third goes and gets a rose, and a peach. Who followed the orders correctly? All of them, actually. But then the leader tells the second and third man, "No, you are wrong, you did not obey me properly." He then shoots the hapless men. You are a bystander. You witness this. Do you say "the men deserved it because they interpreted his orders wrong?" Or do you say "That guy is a sadistic prick and it was HIS fault for not making his orders clear"?

If you choose option 1: you are a fucking moron. I am not going to explain why, because it would be a colossal waste of my precious, finite time trying to explain simple logic to someone so dead in the brain. If you choose option 2, then you suddenly understand why I find your statement about "interpretation" to be utter bullshit in this context.

Since I know you will choose option 1 or try some finagling to try to weasel out of it using some non-sequiturs or not-logic, I'm not going to really hold my breath here, but eh, maybe you'll actually consider my point of view here.

Not very likely, though, so I forgive you for your close-mindedness in advance if that happens to be the case.

Quote: Either the Quran ALSO was modified by human hands, and ergo untrustworthy, or it is flawed from its source thus utterly destroying the idea of allah being perfect.

You gave only 2 options, for no reason or evidence
the 3rd option is to be true from God[/quote]

Eeexcept I just showed you it cannot be. Please, if you're going to enter into intellectual discourse, have the common courtesy of being able to open your mind, even if it's just a razor-thin crack of an opening, would you? This is kind of pathetic at this point.

[qupote]But as we have the original copy (we have about 5 copies not only one) from Quran (written about 20 years after the prophet) then option 1 is wrong

so either Quran is true from God or flawed by Mohamed, but anyway it is genuine
[/quote]

You basically just told me "the quran is true because the quran says so."

Translated to me, that came out as: "I just believe it unquestioningly. In other words, I am a gullible sucker."

Poor bastard. I hope you never get caught in a situation where you're trying to buy a used car...

(March 7, 2013 at 1:17 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: But you also proved that the Quran is not perfect, in that it is easily misinterpreted. You can say it is the fault of people, but take this instance: You have a man, a leader. He has three followers. He tells each of the followers the following: "Go forth, and gather that which is red and a fruit, and bring it to me." One goes and gets an apple. Another goes and gets a raspberry. And the third goes and gets a rose, and a peach. Who followed the orders correctly? All of them, actually. But then the leader tells the second and third man, "No, you are wrong, you did not obey me properly." He then shoots the hapless men. You are a bystander. You witness this. Do you say "the men deserved it because they interpreted his orders wrong?" Or do you say "That guy is a sadistic prick and it was HIS fault for not making his orders clear"?

If you choose option 1: you are a fucking moron. I am not going to explain why, because it would be a colossal waste of my precious, finite time trying to explain simple logic to someone so dead in the brain. If you choose option 2, then you suddenly understand why I find your statement about "interpretation" to be utter bullshit in this context.

I'm choosing neither
God allowed people to understand/misunderstand then choose
If a person is honest and he really tried, (although he chooses wrong) God will not punish him, Actually he will be rewarded but not as good as who chooses right

Quote:You basically just told me "the quran is true because the quran says so."

I didn't say so, proving that the Quran came from God will come later

You completely answered nothing of my question. Non-sequiturs, and a complete misunderstanding the topic at hand. I cease.

(March 10, 2013 at 8:29 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: God allowed people to understand/misunderstand then choose
If a person is honest and he really tried, (although he chooses wrong) God will not punish him, Actually he will be rewarded but not as good as who chooses right

So, by that logic, Islamic extremist terrorists will be rewarded, regardless of whether or not their actions are what Allah wants, so long as they think they are? doing what he wants

(March 10, 2013 at 3:53 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(March 10, 2013 at 8:29 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: God allowed people to understand/misunderstand then choose
If a person is honest and he really tried, (although he chooses wrong) God will not punish him, Actually he will be rewarded but not as good as who chooses right

So, by that logic, Islamic extremist terrorists will be rewarded, regardless of whether or not their actions are what Allah wants, so long as they think they are? doing what he wants

Mauwiya killed innocents and rebelled against who sunnis deemed a legitimate ruler...and not only legitimate ruler but one that was highly praised in the words of the Prophet...yet they say he is rewarded for his rebellion and killing of innocents and taking the throne away from the grandson of the Prophet - then starting a monarchy starting with a son who would slaughter innocents (Yazid) because he did "IJTEHAD" - despite being wrong.

(March 10, 2013 at 3:53 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So, by that logic, Islamic extremist terrorists will be rewarded, regardless of whether or not their actions are what Allah wants, so long as they think they are? doing what he wants

Maybe!!!

Or they may be punished because they were not honest or followed a wrong path to find the truth

but anyway, when a person do something bad to another person (Regardless or religion)
The victim will take revenge in the day of justice (or forgive)

So for example if a Muslim terrorist killed a 100 non-Muslim people, each of them will kill him in the day of justice and he will feel the same pain they felt.

Then God will send the non-Muslim to Hell, and the Muslim to Paradise or to Hell (for some time).

(March 11, 2013 at 2:07 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote:

(March 10, 2013 at 3:53 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So, by that logic, Islamic extremist terrorists will be rewarded, regardless of whether or not their actions are what Allah wants, so long as they think they are? doing what he wants

Maybe!!!

Or they may be punished because they were not honest or followed a wrong path to find the truth

but anyway, when a person do something bad to another person (Regardless or religion)
The victim will take revenge in the day of justice (or forgive)

So for example if a Muslim terrorist killed a 100 non-Muslim people, each of them will kill him in the day of justice and he will feel the same pain they felt.

Then God will send the non-Muslim to Hell, and the Muslim to Paradise or to Hell (for some time).

And if one follows this kind of view, why does a religious person need a earthly justice system?

Or better put: Why to your people insist on influencing laws of countries?

(March 11, 2013 at 2:11 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: And if one follows this kind of view, why does a religious person need a earthly justice system?

This is different
As not all people are good (including Muslims)
Laws will make crime less

Quote:Or better put: Why to your people insist on influencing laws of countries?

Because this what God wants, for example God doesn't like homosexuality, drugs, etc.
So even for non-Muslims they will be forced to follow that.

(March 11, 2013 at 2:16 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: This is different
As not all people are good (including Muslims)
Laws will make crime less

But why fight crime and secure order if you believe that at a certain point criminals will be judged and convicted anyway.
Doesnt that make justice system redundant?

Quote:Because this what God wants, for example God doesn't like homosexuality, drugs, etc.
So even for non-Muslims they will be forced to follow that.

Why should that be done by muslims when these people will be punished anyway?

Is your god to incompetent to do his own job before the apocalypse?

(March 11, 2013 at 2:43 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: But why fight crime and secure order if you believe that at a certain point criminals will be judged and convicted anyway.
Doesnt that make justice system redundant?

Because God is merciful
He defined the Islamic system to be applied in life, in order to guide people to him
the system will make life hard for non-followers
and make others afraid of doing bad

Quote:Why should that be done by muslims when these people will be punished anyway?
Is your god to incompetent to do his own job before the apocalypse?

It is a test and challenge for Muslims, so they can be rewarded more for doing that.