In order for anyone to seek something out as a lifestyle or major decision in life at all. It must be personally appealing on some level, right?

In one sentence or less, what is it you seek to obtain from being a Christian?

I only ask because the alternative seems to be thrown around so often. But if you ask some Christians, its certainly not the fear of Hell that drives them to Christianity, its..."blank".

There would be nothing admirable in an intelligent person seeking a belief out of fear. They would have only been manipulated into saying such things and in the darkest places of their minds, doubt exists.

Is it heaven everlasting that interests you? Does that sound pretty good?
Is that anymore of an admirable reason to practice a faith?

If I want my son to behave a certain way, I want him to do so because he knows its right. Not because he'll be rewarded for behaving and punished for disobeying me.

Wouldn't it be more meaningful if people had ZERO knowledge of the possible outcomes that faced them after death, and it was those pure decisions they made in life on which they were graded on. Untainted by selfish hopes of a golden kingdom, everlasting life or the fear of unrelenting torture. Wouldn't that be the only way you could see whether or not you were successful in getting your children to do what is right?

The act of dying on the cross wouldn't even be neccessary if everyone has already been endowed with a sense of morality. They certainly don't need to crucify a man to know in their heart what the difference between right and wrong is.

Once you have the intelligent thinkers capable of making sound moral decisions, all you really would need to do is sit back and watch.

The only reason to interfere would be if that actually isn't what you what you wanted out of them.

If there were something MORE important that God wanted from his children that was more valuable than altrustic acts of pure goodness performed with integrity and with no expectation of award or punishment.

...worship, fear, artificial words, hypocritical lip service and false sentiment.

These are the things that can be gained by demanding praise. Demanding love or else. They've been done for centuries by history's most notorious dictators.

If the pure of heart is what God wanted, then there was no need for all of the other terrible acts of suffering and misguided texts.

What a mess!

When I was a believer, I would probably have boiled it down to a feeling of security. Knowing all of the necessary answers to all of the relevant questions, particularly "what comes after?" was a great comfort. The feeling that everything worked towards some great purpose was comforting. I can understand why people in bad circumstances can so easily accept religious belief: it's very comforting to think that no matter how bad things are, there's a better life later on, and everyone can reach it. It doesn't require money, or political connections, or any of the things that the downtrodden don't have.

(March 22, 2013 at 1:30 pm)Tonus Wrote: When I was a believer, I would probably have boiled it down to a feeling of security.

Very understandable. I would surmise that there are only a handful of reasons a person would accept a religion, and that one most certainly makes sense. It's probably quite common too.

1.The fear of what happens if you don't believe.

2.The fear that is associated with thinking about there being nothing more.

3.The idea of being rewarded for believing.

4.Plain blind illusory and ignorance.

I'd be willing to bet 3 things:

A. The first two "fear" reasons are probably true for the majority of Christians but is rarely admitted.

B. The third one is what the majority of Christians say their actual reason is (God's love, Their love for God, and life eternal) but is secretly reason 1 or 2.

C. The last one I think is probably the cause of anyone allowing themselves to be convinced by any of it in the first place!

The fear of a Christian alternative surpresses the persuit of knowledge and infects the mind in such a way that logic and reason are ignored and labeled as evil distractions of the truth.

It's exactly what I would do to convince people of a God that isn't real!!!!!

(March 22, 2013 at 1:02 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: In one sentence or less, what is it you seek to obtain from being a Christian?

Nada...

(March 22, 2013 at 2:10 pm)catfish Wrote:

(March 22, 2013 at 1:02 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: In one sentence or less, what is it you seek to obtain from being a Christian?

Nada...

If that is what you seek, you'll be the only one not disappointed! lol.

(March 22, 2013 at 1:02 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: In order for anyone to seek something out as a lifestyle or major decision in life at all. It must be personally appealing on some level, right?

In one sentence or less, what is it you seek to obtain from being a Christian?

Salvation from my sins.

Quote:I only ask because the alternative seems to be thrown around so often. But if you ask some Christians, its certainly not the fear of Hell that drives them to Christianity, its..."blank".

There would be nothing admirable in an intelligent person seeking a belief out of fear. They would have only been manipulated into saying such things and in the darkest places of their minds, doubt exists.

I don’t really give a shit if you admire my motivations.

Quote:Is it heaven everlasting that interests you? Does that sound pretty good?

Yeah, sounds really good, especially as I get older and realize I won’t have time in this life to do all the things I’d like to do.

Quote:Is that anymore of an admirable reason to practice a faith?

I don’t really give a shit if you admire my motivations.

Quote:If I want my son to behave a certain way, I want him to do so because he knows its right. Not because he'll be rewarded for behaving and punished for disobeying me.

I’m plenty happy if they do what’s right. Yeah, doing it because it’s right would be best, but if they do it out of fear of punishment and/or desire for reward, that’s fine.

Quote:Wouldn't it be more meaningful if people had ZERO knowledge of the possible outcomes that faced them after death, and it was those pure decisions they made in life on which they were graded on. Untainted by selfish hopes of a golden kingdom, everlasting life or the fear of unrelenting torture. Wouldn't that be the only way you could see whether or not you were successful in getting your children to do what is right?

No, I don’t see anything wrong with having a goal in mind.

Quote:The act of dying on the cross wouldn't even be neccessary if everyone has already been endowed with a sense of morality. They certainly don't need to crucify a man to know in their heart what the difference between right and wrong is.

The issue isn’t knowing, it’s doing.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: Salvation from my sins.

The entity you believe can save you and the one sentencing you to his pre-ordained torture from which you seek salvation is the very same. That would be no different than asking a man with the Gun to your head if you could be his servant instead of him shooting you.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: I don’t really give a shit if you admire my motivations.

I didn't give you my opinion, and it wasn't my opinion I was hoping you'd reflect on, it was yours on what makes an act valuble. If I save a woman's life because I didn't want her child to grow up without a mother, is that more valuable than if I did it because I was expecting to be paid?

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: Yeah, sounds really good, especially as I get older and realize I won’t have time in this life to do all the things I’d like to do.

So your faith is based on one of the first 2 fear bases. At least you admit it.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: I don’t really give a shit if you admire my motivations.

Again, never offered you my opinion nor did I ask for yours about the one you assumed I had about yours.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: No, I don’t see anything wrong with having a goal in mind.

Goal or bribe? I think we are having a disagreement over semantics. Let me be more specific. What's the difference between an act of pure heart and the act of an individual acting for personal gain?

Quote:The issue isn’t knowing, it’s doing.

That doesn't say anything as to why it's necessary for God to allow a man to be nailed to a cross and publicly slaughtered as a sacrafice to Himself for things that He is ultimately in charge of forgiving anyway. Who makes a Jesus-sacrafice a requirement for everybody else's sins to be forgiven and allowed access to heaven? Oh...The same God that is charge of who gets in and forgiving sins! This concept makes zero sense.

Quote:Salvation from my sins.

Why don't you try not sinning? Then you wouldn't need your sky-daddy to forgive you and you'd probably be less of a prick.

(March 22, 2013 at 4:09 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: The entity you believe can save you and the one sentencing you to his pre-ordained torture from which you seek salvation is the very same. That would be no different than asking a man with the Gun to your head if you could be his servant instead of him shooting you.

And? I’d rather be a servant than be dead, and in your analogy, I would agree with the man that I deserved to be shot.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: I don’t really give a shit if you admire my motivations.

I didn't give you my opinion,[/quote]
Yes you did: “There would be nothing admirable in an intelligent person seeking a belief out of fear. They would have only been manipulated into saying such things and in the darkest places of their minds, doubt exists.” Those aren’t questions.

Quote:and it wasn't my opinion I was hoping you'd reflect on, it was yours on what makes an act valuble. If I save a woman's life because I didn't want her child to grow up without a mother, is that more valuable than if I did it because I was expecting to be paid?

And I addressed that: “Yeah, doing it because it’s right would be best, but if they do it out of fear of punishment and/or desire for reward, that’s fine.”

Quote:So your faith is based on one of the first 2 fear bases. At least you admit it.

That’s part of it, yes. Why shouldn’t I admit it? Fear is a powerful motivator. There are plenty of days I don’t want to go to work, but fear of homelessness gets me out of bed.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: Again, never offered you my opinion nor did I ask for yours about the one you assumed I had about yours.

Again, yes, you gave your opinion.

Quote:Goal or bribe? I think we are having a disagreement over semantics. Let me be more specific. What's the difference between an act of pure heart and the act of an individual acting for personal gain?

Er, the difference is that the first is of pure heart and the second is for personal gain. You need to be yet more specific with your question.

Quote:That doesn't say anything as to why it's necessary for God to allow a man to be nailed to a cross and publicly slaughtered as a sacrafice to Himself for things that He is ultimately in charge of forgiving anyway. Who makes a Jesus-sacrafice a requirement for everybody else's sins to be forgiven and allowed access to heaven? Oh...The same God that is charge of who gets in and forgiving sins! This concept makes zero sense.

The problem is you’re looking for logic in a non-logical issue. Forgiveness is ultimately a matter of personal preference. You can’t prove that one requirement for forgiveness is correct and others are incorrect.

(March 22, 2013 at 4:35 pm)John V Wrote:

(March 22, 2013 at 4:09 pm)Texas Sailor Wrote: The entity you believe can save you and the one sentencing you to his pre-ordained torture from which you seek salvation is the very same. That would be no different than asking a man with the Gun to your head if you could be his servant instead of him shooting you.

And? I’d rather be a servant than be dead, and in your analogy, I would agree with the man that I deserved to be shot.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: I don’t really give a shit if you admire my motivations.

I didn't give you my opinion,

Yes you did: “There would be nothing admirable in an intelligent person seeking a belief out of fear. They would have only been manipulated into saying such things and in the darkest places of their minds, doubt exists.” Those aren’t questions.

Quote:and it wasn't my opinion I was hoping you'd reflect on, it was yours on what makes an act valuble. If I save a woman's life because I didn't want her child to grow up without a mother, is that more valuable than if I did it because I was expecting to be paid?

And I addressed that: “Yeah, doing it because it’s right would be best, but if they do it out of fear of punishment and/or desire for reward, that’s fine.”

Quote:So your faith is based on one of the first 2 fear bases. At least you admit it.

That’s part of it, yes. Why shouldn’t I admit it? Fear is a powerful motivator. There are plenty of days I don’t want to go to work, but fear of homelessness gets me out of bed.

(March 22, 2013 at 3:23 pm)John V Wrote: Again, never offered you my opinion nor did I ask for yours about the one you assumed I had about yours.

Again, yes, you gave your opinion.

Quote:Goal or bribe? I think we are having a disagreement over semantics. Let me be more specific. What's the difference between an act of pure heart and the act of an individual acting for personal gain?

Er, the difference is that the first is of pure heart and the second is for personal gain. You need to be yet more specific with your question.

Quote:That doesn't say anything as to why it's necessary for God to allow a man to be nailed to a cross and publicly slaughtered as a sacrafice to Himself for things that He is ultimately in charge of forgiving anyway. Who makes a Jesus-sacrafice a requirement for everybody else's sins to be forgiven and allowed access to heaven? Oh...The same God that is charge of who gets in and forgiving sins! This concept makes zero sense.

The problem is you’re looking for logic in a non-logical issue. Forgiveness is ultimately a matter of personal preference. You can’t prove that one requirement for forgiveness is correct and others are incorrect.
[/quote]

I cannot argue with any of those responses. Usually self respecting people wouldn't share such pitiful beliefs on account of recognizing how pathetic and contradicting it would be for a loving God of any kind to subject their children to it, and therein throwing in the towel on the nature of their supposed master, but you jumped all over it! You sound like you're fraught with humility and fear. It sounds like you hate your job and live a life in blind ignorant servatude that sounds absolutely awful. If I were you, I think i'd rather put my dreams in a hope basket and pray for a better place too. Sounds like the guy upstairs owes you at least that. I mean it sounds like you've been taking his shit for a long time and you're cool with it so long as he pays up. I don't know how many people deserve to suffer and be tortured after death, but the least he can do is let the people like yourself into heaven that he stripped from of their happiness, dignity and pride during their life. Good on you Mr! If you see no shame in being a prideless begger living in a shroud of ignorance and humility, then i'm sure those are qualities your all powerful God intended on you to have and make you special! You sound like a good Christian.

P.S.
You're right, I did offer my opinion, I stand corrected!