(March 24, 2013 at 10:00 am)John V Wrote: 1. Define gay.

2. Support that you were born gay.

3. Explain what being born that way has to do with anything.

I know that Infidel wants this debate, but you're seriously asking question 3?

It doesn't matter if you are born gay or choose to be gay. People aren't born being assholes to gay people.

(March 24, 2013 at 2:42 am)Mr Infidel Wrote: I am gay. I mentioned it already in one thread somewhere, I think it was the "Former theists" thread in regards to why one became an atheist.

People sexuality shouldn't a reason to be an atheist IMO. I have read many posts here and elsewhere where people say they have separated themselves from their religion because they were not excepted for their sexuality. If that is your only reason then, doesn't it mean you agree with religion except for that one issue? As the guy in the video you posted states, he is a christian and gay, just like the catholic priests.

(March 24, 2013 at 11:28 am)frz Wrote: People sexuality shouldn't a reason to be an atheist IMO. I have read many posts here and elsewhere where people say they have separated themselves from their religion because they were not excepted for their sexuality. If that is your only reason then, doesn't it mean you agree with religion except for that one issue? As the guy in the video you posted states, he is a christian and gay, just like the catholic priests.

No, but it can open people's minds to think in ways we aren't generally encouraged to think.

I remember, back in the late 90's, I read an article in the newspaper where Jimmy Carter was talking about leaving the Southern Bapitst church. It was surprising because Carter was always very religious, but also because the SBC had been becoming increasingly conservative and demolishing the line between politics and religion. One of the questions that was asked was why he didn't leave them sooner. His answer? He never really questioned it before. His father was always a Southern Baptist, his brother was always Southern Bapitst, his friends were always Southern Bapitst, and it was just something you accepted and never really questioned.

I'm watching my boyfriend go through something similar. He used to be a devout Mormon, but the LDS church is extremely homophobic, not to mention they believe in very rigid gender roles. When he realized homophobia is wrong and those rigid gender roles are wrong, it forced him to do something he had never done before: question the church he was raised with.

I think, when you're gay (or trans), it forces you to question your religious beliefs if your religious beliefs are homophobic. Sometimes people are able to rectify their religious beliefs with their homosexuality, sometimes they aren't. But just getting them to ask those questions is very meaningful.

As for why we turn atheist over it, that's simple. The first step to getting a theist to become an atheist is to get them to question their religion. And homophoic religious beliefs do that.

OK. So then once religion remove homophobia from their system, again as the guy in the OP video wishes, gay people will no longer have any reason to question their religion and will go on living their lives being theist.

Homophobia is forever in religious texts, so as long as people still read those then gays should have a reason to question religion. And if we get to a point where the vast majority of the religious do not give a fuck, then we already have a large population questioning the fine print of their religion which could lead to more people abandoning it.

Quote:OK. So then once religion remove homophobia from their system, again as the guy in the OP video wishes, gay people will no longer have any reason to question their religion and will go on living their lives being theist.

If dogmatic homophobia was, by itself, the reason a gay person leaves their religion, then I guess so, if they have low standards. If, on the other hand, dogmatic homophobia causes a gay person to examine the entirety of their religion with a critical eye, there's no need to go back just because the former religion concedes to social progress.

Once a religion turns its back on long-held dogma that has become culturally-unacceptable, as Christianity has done with slavery, it tries to pretend it was against it all along.

Possibly. That's why it's better to live life as a skeptic. Regardless, there's no reason to be an asshat to trans, bi or homosexual people.

(March 24, 2013 at 12:38 pm)frz Wrote: OK. So then once religion remove homophobia from their system, again as the guy in the OP video wishes, gay people will no longer have any reason to question their religion and will go on living their lives being theist.

.....until something else causes them to question their faith. I mean, even if he wasn't queer, my boyfriend is also a huge scienec geek. Force him to face up to the contradiction between LDS belief in creationism and his love for science and you have another situation forcing him to question his beliefs.

Anyway, if the best way to get someone to stay a theist is to prevent them from asking questions about their religion, doesn't that say something tremendously negative about your faith?

(March 24, 2013 at 12:51 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Anyway, if the best way to get someone to stay a theist is to prevent them from asking questions about their religion, doesn't that say something tremendously negative about your faith?

yes it does say something tremendously negative about faith.