(March 28, 2013 at 1:04 am)jstrodel Wrote: Esquilax do you think it is possible that if God knew everything, God would be able to judge who deserved punishment and who didn't? In the case of Sodom and Gommorah, God destroyed the entire city because the entire city deserved punishment. What is unreasonable about believing that if God knows everything, God would know who was guilty and who not, and if God knew this, God would be justified in killing them.

I guess my main problem with the Sodom and Gomorrah story is actually that god let Lot live, despite the fact that earlier in that story Lot gave up his virgin daughters for gangrape. Wasn't he supposed to be the one moral man in the city, according to that story?

Quote:You are another one who spats alot of spittle without ever using the scripture to prove a point, have you ever read the Bible or are you another googler who depends on another's opinion.

I do, in fact, own a bible. Are you saying that god never called for genocide? Never, say, flooded the world and killed all but eight people? Or is that a part you've opted to magic into metaphor, too?

Your turn: ever read a book about atheism? The religious texts of another faith? Anything like that?

Oh, and by the way, I don't need to quote scripture when talking about stuff like that quote. It's logic, got nothing to do with the actual content of the book.

I am not actually sure why God accepts Lot and condemns what Sodom did. What Lot did was very evil. Keep in mind, there are many people in the Bible that do evil things, that God does punish them, sometimes they will be punished more later on. Moses killed a man. David had adultery and committed murder. The apostle Paul committed murder. God does not necessarily look at things the way people think, but I believe that God does see them in another way. God doesn't always deal with people at a certain time.

Do you think it is reasonable to believe if God knows everything that God could know a reason why to let Lot live and condemn others? This is what the justice system in America does all the time, constantly people are given much worst sentences for some crimes and other seem to get less sentences for less crimes. I don't know what this means exactly.


I have read Hume and Nietzsche and studied Judaism extensively as well as Buddhism and Islam.

Quote:Do you think it is reasonable to believe if God knows everything that God could know a reason why to let Lot live and condemn others? This is what the justice system in America does all the time, constantly people are given much worst sentences for some crimes and other seem to get less sentences for less crimes. I don't know what this means exactly.

That our justice system is inconsistent is a testament to the imperfections of legal justice. Apparently, God's justice has its flaws, too.

catfish Wrote:Yeah? I'd be willing to bet that you go right back to claiming the God of the Bible ordered genocide within a week if not immediately.

If I'm talking to someone who believes in the legitimacy of the bible, of course I will. I don't believe in any of it as either literal truth or metaphorical truth. The book's inconsistencies are your problem, not mine.

(March 28, 2013 at 12:26 am)Godschild Wrote: Didn't you state in another post you've never read the Bible, if so then you have no real opinion on what it says, just hearsay; shame on you for bring in you second hand belief.

If you suspect such a post exists, go find it. I have read the bible enough times.

I don't think they are necessarily flaws, God just doesn't always deal with things the way we would expect. I think atheists have this idea that God is like math, and I don't see it like that. God just judges different situations. I believe it is fair in the end, but God isn't just like math. Why should God have to be like a math equation and make all justice equally?

One further thing to consider, God judges people, the entirety of their lives, God does not judge actions. When God judges people in the Bible, God is judging everything that they do, the perfections and imperfections. God cannot possibly list everything that everyone does.

So, I think in the end, when people see all of the ways in which God interacts with the sinful people, people will see that God uses a fair standard and shows no partiality, like it says that God does. But if God revealed all the information that God uses to make this distinction, the Bible would be 10000 pages long, containing the biographies and all related information of every situation that God judged.

Quote:I don't think they are necessarily flaws, God just doesn't always deal with things the way we would expect. I think atheists have this idea that God is like math, and I don't see it like that. God just judges different situations. I believe it is fair in the end, but God isn't just like math. Why should God have to be like a math equation and make all justice equally?

If his justice is not perfectly equal, the idea of his justice enforcing objective morality is fraudulent. It is merely God's idea of what is right and wrong rather than a natural law which exists as a byproduct of creation, as a creationist might argue is the case for particle interactions which allow for matter and energy to exist. It is one being's arbitrary opinion, and it is not self-evident that such a being's opinion is worth more than mine.

Quote:One further thing to consider, God judges people, the entirety of their lives, God does not judge actions. When God judges people in the Bible, God is judging everything that they do, the perfections and imperfections. God cannot possibly list everything that everyone does.

Yeah, I know, that would require a creator who is omnipotent.

Quote:So, I think in the end, when people see all of the ways in which God interacts with the sinful people, people will see that God uses a fair standard and shows no partiality, like it says that God does. But if God revealed all the information that God uses to make this distinction, the Bible would be 10000 pages long, containing the biographies and all related information of every situation that God judged.

If Christianity is a great big Animal Farm, you'd be one of its Squealers.

[quote='Godschild' pid='422365' dateline='1364446497']

[quote]I noticed that you said practiced Christianity, you should have tried living it. Practicing Christianity is nothing more than making it another religion. One can practice baseball for a long time, but if you do not get into a game you've never played baseball, same with Christianity. [/quote]

I call bullshit right here. What, in your mind, constitutes the difference between living and practicing? And, please, spare us all any hocus pocus here. Provide real examples of the difference in action or conduct?

I'll bet your description will fail to establish any significant difference.

In fact, I'll bet most Christian churches would much prefer a member who is compelled to practice the faith rather than someone who rather ambiguously claims to "live" it.

[quote]How is it that you can ask a Christian to quit living for Christ when you have not first experienced Christ, that to me is most inappropriate, even condescending.[/quote]

I guess you missed a very important part of my post: I don't believe that anyone has experienced Christ. If I did, I certainly wouldn't be encouraging anyone to question that experience.

As for my proposal being inappropriate or condescending, I couldn't disagree more. I am geniunely trying to help people who suffer from a delusional belief. In fact, I'm not only trying to help them, but I'm also indirectly trying to help their potential victims.

Now, had you accused me of being a bit too ambitious or naive in my attempt, I might agree you. Won't stop me, though, as I've been able to effectively plant the seeds of doubt in the past.

And, while you probably consider that to be some sort of terrible evil, I happen to consider it a positive contribution to decent society.

[quote]It is also apparent from reading the post that you did not really understand scripture, did you really study scripture or are you googleing others opinions. [/quote]

Just because you don't like what I have to say does not invalidate it. LOL.

[quote]So, IMO you have no reasons to state any reason, because you are not using reason in your statement.[/quote]

I see a lot of rhetoric from you but nothing of substance. If I'm not using reason, then make that case and stop merely saying I'm not.

Surely you can do better.

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By the way, Godschild, you claim that I don't understand scripture and yet you do not even seem remotely familiar with it. If you were, I seriously doubt you would have taken such great offense to the word "practice", which is used numerous times in the New Testament to describe exactly what Christians should be doing.

LOL

Examples:

Philippians 4:9
Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

1 Timothy 5:4
But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

And, finally, the clincher.....

Luke 8:21
He replied, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”

Better think up a better argument, and fast!

GC Wrote:You are another one who spats a lot of spittle without ever using the scripture to prove a point, have you ever read the Bible or are you another googler who depends on another's opinion.

Esquilax Wrote:I do, in fact, own a bible. Are you saying that god never called for genocide? Never, say, flooded the world and killed all but eight people? Or is that a part you've opted to magic into metaphor, too?

I did not ask if you owned a Bible, what I say is this, God pronounces judgement against people because it goes against who He is and then carries out that judgement as He sees fit, I accept all of scripture. Now have you read and studied the Bible?

Esquilax Wrote:Your turn: ever read a book about atheism? The religious texts of another faith? Anything like that?

Oh, and by the way, I don't need to quote scripture when talking about stuff like that quote. It's logic, got nothing to do with the actual content of the book.

No, no and you very seldom see me arguing with people who worship other gods, unless they bring my God into play. I would think reading a book about not believing would be boring, how much can one say about non belief. It's actually not hard to figure non belief means non belief no matter what the subject of belief might be. I'm not trying to be sarcastic just saying.

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@ Ryantology, that was the German sorry.

(March 28, 2013 at 2:05 am)Ryantology Wrote: It is one being's arbitrary opinion, and it is not self-evident that such a being's opinion is worth more than mine.

This is where you see the fruit of atheists use of mocking, exaggerated intellectual hubris and shear evil put into words.

Let me get this straight:


You think that if:
1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omniscient
3. God is holy, all good, perfect

To deny:
4. God's justice fails to conform to some sort of external expectation of how you think it should happen

Entails:
5. God, the creator of the universe who gave everything its shape and purpose, has no moral authority


You have a very deep demonic root of pride inside your spirit if you fail to see how you would still need to subject to God even if God does not process morality in the same way that you would like. God does not have to judge the world the way that you want God to in order to be just. It would be self evident that God's morality is higher than yours, because God created everything and knows everything, while you know very little.

The fact that you have made this point shows where your heart is, you are not willing to submit yourself to a being higher than you, you will not accept it, you are full of pride, you make demands and say the creator should conform to your standard. Why? Why should God conform to your standard?

I do think, which should be apparent from the rest of what I wrote, that God's actions do conform to an internal standard of purity and holiness. Actually, God gave me a revelation of this where I saw many aspects of the inner workings of God's judgements. It is definitely real.

Why do you think that you would know more than an omniscient being in a possible world in which that being existed? Don't you recognize that this is an obvious character flaw?

(March 27, 2013 at 9:03 pm)Drich Wrote: Before i proceed with following this red herring do you conceed the rest of the arguement?

Bet you thought I forgot you, huh?

Not yet!

I read through your rather long winded testimonials, as well as your comments on morality, and I have reached the conclusion that you are exactly the type of Christian that it's my hope to prevent others from becoming. That type of Christian is the deluded type that blindly supports every notion in the bible about God, and sees nothing wrong with the many many crimes against humanity that the bible alleges to have happened as a result of god's command.

By the way, Moses was given powers from god, as were a number of other characters in the bible.

Care to demonstrate any of yours? Surely you gained some supernatural ability(s) as a result of the numerous supernatural experiences you've had.

I'll tell you what, why don't you pray to god and ask him to send me an undeniable sign of some sort? You'd think that might have happened during the 25 plus years I served as a Christian, but maybe I just needed the intercession of someone as spiritually in tune as yourself.

I'll be waiting and I'll report our findings.

(March 28, 2013 at 2:20 am)Godschild Wrote: I did not ask if you owned a Bible, what I say is this, God pronounces judgement against people because it goes against who He is and then carries out that judgement as He sees fit, I accept all of scripture. Now have you read and studied the Bible?

I have read the bible, and I understand it. The problem here is this implication that if I disagree with you about things within the bible, then it's just that I haven't studied it at the correct level. It's not that I have a legitimate point, but that I just don't get it.

But it's possible to understand the content of the bible yet still not buy it. I get the bible, but I'm not obligated to love everything in it. This assertion you keep making about me is just a dodge, a way for you to cast aspersions on me while at the same time avoiding actually discussing the issues.

Quote:I would think reading a book about not believing would be boring, how much can one say about non belief. It's actually not hard to figure non belief means non belief no matter what the subject of belief might be. I'm not trying to be sarcastic just saying.

Actually, many of the atheist books I've read go into great detail as to the inaccuracies, inconsistencies and immoralities in the bible that led to the author becoming an atheist, or that support a secular position. What you're saying is you have a high standard for anyone with the audacity to criticize your religion, but you just won't apply that standard to yourself when it might shake your belief.

How interesting.