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3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
(April 7, 2013 at 3:39 am)smax Wrote:
(April 7, 2013 at 1:31 am)Mr_Dew7 Wrote:
Quote:This response of yours explains a lot about you. You are obviously very delicate and offended by harsh yet truthful language.

You want things to sound nice. This is a very common characteristic among Christians.

I don't mind the harsh language, what I do mind is the demeaning way in which you describe heaven. I am an adult, please don't treat me as if I must sugar coat everything, because that is not so. I am well aware of the reality, harsh or not.


Quote:I've read the whole thing, and I've done expositional studies on all of the important books of the bible.

And, had you read my post, you would have seen that I reference several verses in the Bible describing heaven.

I am confused here. Are you speaking of the that response that you posted to me? Because the only thing I saw in your response was you twisting the words of the Bible. I saw no actual scriptures anywhere in that post.

I do comend you on your studying of the Bible though. But I study the Bible as well, I read it every day, and I have seen nothing that states there is a class system or racial preference. I have not seen anywhere in the Bible that says God is a slave driver, or that we will be eternally "kissing ass". Nor have I seen a place where it says that God is egotistical. Please, if you would, provide me with specific verses so that I can see for myself if what you claim is true.

Quote:We could debate what the Bible describes hell as being until the end of time (LOL), but I think the focus here is and should be on what heaven is described as being in the Bible.

The Bible describes a place of eternal and mindless praise and worship. Even worse, it's a place where racial prevences are observed, as well as a class system.

Where???
Quote:But none of that should concern you more than the fact that heaven is described as a place where you will no longer be you. I've read the Bible from cover to cover, thoroughly researching everything that seemed worthy of research, and I found nothing indicating any level of individual importance in heaven. Well, unless you consider the preferential treatment of race and gender to be some form of individual acknowledgement.

Again, where does it talk about these things? Please enlighten me.

Quote:You'd conduct the experiment to see if the proposed conditions heaven actually appeal to you.

How could one ever fully recreate the perfection of heaven? Any attempt to do so by human hands would fail miserably. I have thought of this subject much, and I already praise God when I rise up and when i lay down, and all through the day. So what difference would that make? And why would God give us the gifts described in the Bible, that we will recieve in heaven, if only to enslave us and not ever let us enjoy said gifts?

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:2,3—KJV)

Why allow us to have mansions, if we can't make use of them? Why give us anything at all?

Quote:But, since you refuse to accept the Bible's description of heaven, you may want to consider an alternative to the experiment. I suggest that, sense you are intent on simply making this shit up as you go along, you create your own religion equipped with greater flexibility and a much more appealing payoff for those who meet the standards of your reigion.

And, please, don't think this is beyond your station or anything like that. All of the gods were created by men, and those gods number in the thousands.

Who says you can't invent one better than the last guy(s)?

How am I making this up? I haven't made any of this up. I honestly don't think that you have really read the Bible like you say you have.

[quote='FallentoReason' pid='427847' dateline='1365267406']

As for disproving God... have a look at my "religious views"...

You form your own opinions instead of relying solely on authority, which is not a bad thing, and you believe that God cannot be proven or disproven, but that God created the universe and then abandoned it?

And yes I did google definitions lol. Is that right though?

(April 7, 2013 at 3:44 am)FallentoReason Wrote: [quote='Mr_Dew7' pid='428197' dateline='1365320338']

I don't mean to interrupt here, though I would like to ask a few questions. I haven't been keeping up with the conversation so far, so please forgive me for jumping into it in the middle. Are you talking of the Bible? And if so, where does it say that Jesus was just on earth?

Last time I checked, the orthodox view is that in the 1st century B.C.E, there was an apocalyptic preacher going from town to town performing miracles who was said to be the messiah i.e. Jesus.


Quote: And would not the spiritual messiah that you are speaking of be the Messiah Jesus after He was ressurected from the dead? Wouldn't it make sense that the once a being of such power would be ressurected into the spirit and not back into flesh, especially since it was the will of God to bring Him (the Messiah) up into heaven to be at His right hand after a short period of time on earth in a spiritual form. I am just confused here, and if you could take the time, it would be helpful. Thanks!

What I'm saying is that it seems some Christians in the 1st century were preaching a messiah that never came to earth in the first place. He always was (and presumably is) in the heavenly realms.

Oh I see. I was not aware that early Christians were preaching that Jesus never came to earth. Something I must research! Thanks for replying so quickly!
Clap[/i][/size]God demonstrates His own love for us in this: that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
Mr_Dew7 Wrote:You form your own opinions instead of relying solely on authority, which is not a bad thing, and you believe that God cannot be proven or disproven, but that God created the universe and then abandoned it?

And yes I did google definitions lol. Is that right though?

Haha, I was just referring to the "Deist" part because you thought I was an atheist, but yes, you're essentially right about who I am intellectually; Free Thinking is my mode of analysing the world around me, I'm Agnostic which means I can't know for certain if there is a god or not, and I believe in the first uncaused cause. Whether you call that "god" or the "Creator" doesn't really matter. As long as you don't think old guy with a white beard then we should be alright.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
Mr. Dew,

You obviously did not read the post this thread was created with.

You also obviously have not read Revelations in your Bible.

Please do both and then we will continue this discussion.
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
(April 7, 2013 at 4:08 am)FallentoReason Wrote:
Mr_Dew7 Wrote:You form your own opinions instead of relying solely on authority, which is not a bad thing, and you believe that God cannot be proven or disproven, but that God created the universe and then abandoned it?

And yes I did google definitions lol. Is that right though?

Haha, I was just referring to the "Deist" part because you thought I was an atheist, but yes, you're essentially right about who I am intellectually; Free Thinking is my mode of analysing the world around me, I'm Agnostic which means I can't know for certain if there is a god or not, and I believe in the first uncaused cause. Whether you call that "god" or the "Creator" doesn't really matter. As long as you don't think old guy with a white beard then we should be alright.

Lol, well you are right, I should have looked at your religious views before assuming! Your views are definately interesting to me. And no, I don't think He's old with a white beard. I haven't seen Him lol, so I can't know what He looks like. But thank you for clearing that up by the way!

(April 7, 2013 at 4:15 am)smax Wrote: Mr. Dew,

You obviously did not read the post this thread was created with.

You also obviously have not read Revelations in your Bible.

Please do both and then we will continue this discussion.

I have read your beginning post. I apologize for assuming that you were speaking of your response to me. I have read Revelations one time all the way through. It can be difficult to decipher for sure. I just want to know how you can turn willing servitude into slavery? If I wasn't willing to serve God, then why would I want to go to heaven? I don't mind serving the Almighty, especially when He offers everlasting life of the best kind, with no war, no pain, no tears, and no death! This is what I meant by my last post, and so I will apologize for confusing what you said.
Clap[/i][/size]God demonstrates His own love for us in this: that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
Mr_Dew7 Wrote:Lol, well you are right, I should have looked at your religious views before assuming! Your views are definately interesting to me. And no, I don't think He's old with a white beard. I haven't seen Him lol, so I can't know what He looks like. But thank you for clearing that up by the way!

Not a problem Smile
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
(April 7, 2013 at 4:19 am)Mr_Dew7 Wrote: I have read your beginning post. I apologize for assuming that you were speaking of your response to me. I have read Revelations one time all the way through. It can be difficult to decipher for sure. I just want to know how you can turn willing servitude into slavery? If I wasn't willing to serve God, then why would I want to go to heaven? I don't mind serving the Almighty, especially when He offers everlasting life of the best kind, with no war, no pain, no tears, and no death! This is what I meant by my last post, and so I will apologize for confusing what you said.

Okay, with that out of the way, let's talk about the verse you referred to:

John 14:1 There are many mansions.....

First, you need to understand that the scripture depicts Jesus talking to the diciples (specifically Peter), and not a crowd of people (or gentiles). This specific address to the deciples is one of several scriptures pointing to a class system in heaven. But the book of Revelations is far more to the point on the matter.

Secondly, the greek word here (μοναὶ (or monai) is poorly and selectively translated to "mansions" by the KJV. Most other translations use the words "dwelling" or "rooms". There is obviiously a big difference between the two, with the word mansion falsely conveying the idea of some level of individual importance.

You should be careful with that King James Bible that I'm sure you are so fond of. Many of it's translations have been questioned as being erroneous or selective.
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
Just reading back through some these responses and realized I missed this one:

(April 2, 2013 at 10:18 am)radorth Wrote: We begin with a testimony we must take by faith? Please prove you "practiced the faith"? Did you do everything the sermon on the Mount instructed you to do? Did you have "rivers of living water" flowing from you rinnermost being, as Jesus said true believers would experience? If so, please describe this experience. If not, at least admit you missed a few milestones.

Of course I didn't experience "rivers of living water". LOL.

Neither have you, although I don't doubt that you think you have.

Quote:Actually the rules of logic dictate that you prove the Bible writers are liars, at least those who speak first or second hand, as required in a court of law. Stories like the Flood story or Creation are a valid exception, since we don't even have second hand witnesses. The rest you have to prove false. Otherwise you are just slandering or libelling people with no accountability yourself, and without them being able to answer you.

By that logic, all I have to do is write my own book claiming the Bible writers are all liars. With that, the burden will be on you to prove that I am a liar.

All joking and sarcasm aside, if you just take a second and think about the argument you are making, you'd quickly realize that it's fundamentally flawed.

Lots of stories have been writen about lots of things relating to god and religion, and many of those things are not consistent with, and do not promote, Christianity.

Sense everything that has ever been written cannot all be true, than the only logical course of action is to challenge the validity of any supernatural claims.

Quote:More crappy logic I'm afraid. Are you sure your logic professor agreed?

Nothing stumps an argument quite so effectively as the word "crappy". LOL.

By the way, Hitchens studied at a constituent college of the University of Oxford. I'll be sure to forward your complaint of their logic professors being "crappy". I'm sure they'll find it every bit as amusing as I did.

Quote:Well no, I would say that when you ignore his will so completely, disobey 15 of the the 10 commandments, knock off his prophets, and finally kill his son, he has no reason to even speak to you until you are ready to listen.

That is some great parenting advice. Before your kids are even born, hold them in contempt, alienate them, and refuse to communicate with and guide them. In other words, take no parental responsibility whatsoever.

Now that's love!

Quote:Exactly right!! I totally agree. So what other faith saves a thief at the last moment? What other faith has nine gifts of the Holy Spirit, none of which you seem to have experienced yourself? What other faith can brag to have had the likes of 55 American founders, a John Locke, and ALL the abolitionists as followers? Those who have actually tried Christianity have all kinds of reasons.

Dude, Islam offers 72 virgins for martyrdom! Nothing in the Bible can even come close to competing with that. Don't even embarass yourself by trying to come up with something.

That said, I wasn't referring to incentive when I wrote "faith without reason". I was referring to reason when I wrote "reason".

Quote:Yes I can agree, those who had such experiences are more likely to believe. You apparently never did, so note how you are contradictiong yourself. You said you "practiced the faith" but had no such experience? First you tell us you practiced it, then you say one should get to see a miracle before being asked to practice it. In your case that is obviously true, but there are other experiences Jesus promised which are plenty of proof for me, like spontaneous speaking in tongues, etc.

No contradiction at all. I was raised Christian and had numerous Christian associations (still do). Naturally, I tried to make that lifestyle I was taught work.

Eventually, however, I came to realize that Santa Clause was just a story that was made up to get little boys to behave all year so as not to end up on the naughty list.

Santa Clause, Jesus, same thing, different stages of progression.

Quote:Well since you can't show me anyone who has actually practiced what Jesus preached, your claim here is completely unfounded. Not to mention, nobody had Bibles to read untl 300 years ago.

You lost me here, man. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

I will say this, however, you make a great point about the Bible. God is so powerful that he can literally speak entire planets and ecosystems into existence. But, for some reason, he's a lot less resourceful and efficient when it comes to completing a series of books that are critical to his people meeting his standards.

Quote:Um, didn't you know that it was the Christians who first freed their slaves, in such massive numbers that Constantine had to make rules about it?


Could you be any more vague?

Quote:Did you not know John Locke beieved every word of the NT and Jefferson called him one of the three "greatest men in the world". ?

John Locke was a great man, but he obviously did not believe every word of the New Testament, as many of his theories and views were of secular influence. His take on religion as it relates to government:

(1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints;

(2) Even if they could, enforcing a single "true religion" would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence;

(3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.

Quote:Did you not know what happened when "reason" was worshipped during the French Revolution? What atrocities occurred? (Called Voltaire's war by some, and a true bloodbath)

The Age of Reason, as it is referred to, followed the Age of Faith, also known as the Dark Ages.

Naturally, the people just being freed of religious oppression and bondage, had a bad taste in their mouths, and wanted to rid the world of religion altogether.

By the way, I love how you completely ignore the part religion played in all of this.

Quote:Did you not know that 70 million innocent people were killed by atheistic government experiments like Communism.


Communism? You mean like this:

Acts 2:44-45
All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Acts 4:32
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had

Quote:And the reason is, there not only was no objective moral standard, but no one had an "internal policeman" at all. Hence the police state is inevitable.

No one has an internal policeman, but most people have a conscience. And, if any belief creates a police state type of environment, it is the beliefs of religious fanatics who feel it's unacceptable for people to have diverse views.

Quote:But of course you got all your morals from thin air, unlike Jefferson, who explicitly said he got them form Jesus.

Thomas Jefferson edited the New Testament, removing everything outlandish and supernatural, so as to retain only that which is morally redeeming, rational, and reasonable.

Does that sound like a hard core Christian to you, or does it sound more like someone who recognizes the dangers inherent in supernatural beliefs, and aspires to eliminate that danger?

Thomas Jefferson, much like many of the other founding fathers, was basically a deist. He had an association with the Church, and was an advocate of it some ways, but many of his beliefs were divergent enough from the fundamentals of Christiantity to rule him out as a member.

Quote:Since you trust scientists, you might want to read Werner Von' Brauns take on the value of belief in a Judgement Day. (It should be obvious)

I trust science, but that does not mean that I trust all scientists. And, I gotta tell you, I find it very amusing that you think the relatively premitive views of one scientist could persuade me to abandon good reason.

We don't need a fairy tale with the potential for a terrible end to motivate good moral value. We are all human beings, and share a certain empathy and desire to survive and succeed as a result.

And, the values that you think come from god, actually come from man anyway, as man invented god and all his attributes and standards along with him.

Don't think so?

Then explain why even god's moral values have changed progressively over the centuries just as man's moral values have changed.

And I really hope that you are familiar enough with your own Bible that I don't have to point to the many many changes in "god's" moral values from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

Quote:I've been there and you haven't, obviously. So I think I'll decide that for myself.

You've been there, huh? LOL.

How'd you like singing how wonderful god is all day and night with his name tatooed on your forhead?

It's no wonder you're back!
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
(March 27, 2013 at 12:26 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:
Drich Wrote:Ah, no. God provides proof for all who simply Ask, Seek and Knock as out lined in Luke 11. If C.Hitch, you or anyone else did not get the proof Moses or Paul got it is because none of you A/S/K as described in luke 11.

When will you quit smearing the forum with this nonsense? We've called you out on this particular thing time and time again. The believer fulfills their own prayers in accordance to how desperate they are to "hear from God".

Also QFT.

We've had members describe their failed searches for God whilst they were Christians. Apparently they were awful people. I wonder that God doesn't show himself in order to keep believers, make believers, and avoid deconversions.
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
(April 11, 2013 at 5:15 am)smax Wrote: Of course I didn't experience "rivers of living water". LOL.

Neither have you, although I don't doubt that you think you have.

So you know what everybody else has experienced with absolute certainty? You are simply wrong and should I decide to tell you my experience, you would know you were wrong.

Quote:By that logic, all I have to do is write my own book claiming the Bible writers are all liars. With that, the burden will be on you to prove that I am a liar.

One way of avoiding your responsibility I suppose. So I guess all libel trials are fundamentally unjust? Right

Quote:All joking and sarcasm aside, if you just take a second and think about the argument you are making, you'd quickly realize that it's fundamentally flawed.

Lots of stories have been writen about lots of things relating to god and religion, and many of those things are not consistent with, and do not promote, Christianity. Sense everything that has ever been written cannot all be true, than the only logical course of action is to challenge the validity of any supernatural claims.

Fine. Just use fair-minded logic as Will Durant did.

Quote:That is some great parenting advice. Before your kids are even born, hold them in contempt, alienate them, and refuse to communicate with and guide them. In other words, take no parental responsibility whatsoever.

Major straw man

Quote:Dude, Islam offers 72 virgins for martyrdom! Nothing in the Bible can even come close to competing with that. Don't even embarass yourself by trying to come up with something.

Which would fully explain why you don't want to be a Christian, and proof would do you no good.

Quote:John Locke was a great man, but he obviously did not believe every word of the New Testament, as many of his theories and views were of secular influence. His take on religion as it relates to government:

(1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints;

(2) Even if they could, enforcing a single "true religion" would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence;

(3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.
Quote:Did you not know what happened when "reason" was worshipped during the French Revolution? What atrocities occurred? (Called Voltaire's war by some, and a true bloodbath)

You dont' get that Locke could be a Christian and say those things??? Did you read his "The Reasonableness of Christianity"? Obviously not and you don't get what he was about, clearly

Quote:The Age of Reason, as it is referred to, followed the Age of Faith, also known as the Dark Ages.

Naturally, the people just being freed of religious oppression and bondage,

Yes, entirely by Christians like the first Luthrens, Methodists and Quakers. Like I said Voltaire was justifying slavery at the exact time Wesley was calling it the scourge of the earth.

Quote:had a bad taste in their mouths, and wanted to rid the world of religion altogether.

ROFLOL Oh my God, you are just deluded. Only Paine actually said anything like that, and Adams called him a "Blackgard" for saying so.

No they wanted to get rid of the religious bathwater and keep the Baby.

Quote:By the way, I love how you completely ignore the part religion played in all of this.

Oh no I get that. I just don't think in black and white as you do. It's not either all good or all bad.
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RE: 3 reasons for Christians to start questionng their faith
Personally I can sum it up like this.

God created man.
God gave man freewill.
Eve exercised freewill by eating an apple from a forbidden tree and got her and Adam expelled forever from Eden.

Generations later man is still exercising freewill by doing whatever.
God creates flood and drowns everybody.

Between the above and below stated, man continues to exercise freewill by doing whatever.
(worships other god/gods, worships no god/gods, forst cities are created with dens of *insert vice here*, etc etc etc)

Generations later man is still exercising freewill by doing whatever.
God impregnates young with girl himself (son of god).
God allows son (himself) to be crucified to forgive the sins of man (which freewill was used to do).

Genrations later (these days) man is still exercising freewill by doing whatever.
So, I wonder what fantastical myth will greedy powerful church leaders come up with next?
I mean come on, democrats and republicans are still in power and American Christians are now the chosen people (evident by all the original chosen people that died in the concentration camps). Isn't it time for another show?
"Agnostic Atheist" ---  Hehe Hehe Hehe Hehe Hehe

Atheist   = Noun, a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
Agnostic = Noun, a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
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