On another topic which has developed in this thread, the bible does say that god ordered genocide:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

You read that right, folks, even donkey's were objects of his wrath! LOL

But, yeah, I'm sure this same god can be completely trusted not to utterly lose his temper again and do something completely irrational and inconsistent with his own policies. I'd totally trust him with eternal salvation. After all, it worked out great for Lucifer and a third of the angels.

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(March 28, 2013 at 2:56 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm using these same verses to answer what I did not hide above.
Each of those tell of the person/s living out what they practice, something you did not say about your practice. Even though I said to practice baseball is not the same as playing the game, practicing will make for a better player when he is playing. You ever hear of live what you practice or maybe this one "be doers of the word and not hearers only." Living in a relationship with Christ is what separates Christians from all the rest.

Wow. I gotta tell you, I am extremely disappointed. I was really hoping we might enter into a compelling and challenging debate, but you've got nothing to offer that.

And, just so it's clear that this isn't merely some type of cop out, you don't even seem to have a basic understanding of the word "practice". The very quote you use to suggest that "practice" isn't adequate in fact describes practice over inaction.

"be doers (or practitioners) of the word and not hearers only."

(March 28, 2013 at 2:20 am)Godschild Wrote: I did not ask if you owned a Bible, what I say is this, God pronounces judgement against people because it goes against who He is and then carries out that judgement as He sees fit, I accept all of scripture. Now have you read and studied the Bible?

Esquilax Wrote:I have read the bible, and I understand it. The problem here is this implication that if I disagree with you about things within the bible, then it's just that I haven't studied it at the correct level. It's not that I have a legitimate point, but that I just don't get it.

But it's possible to understand the content of the bible yet still not buy it. I get the bible, but I'm not obligated to love everything in it. This assertion you keep making about me is just a dodge, a way for you to cast aspersions on me while at the same time avoiding actually discussing the issues.

Thank you for answering, many want. I would disagree with you on understanding the scriptures. I know there is a certain amount that anyone can understand, and some as yourself will see more, however there is the spiritual that the Holy Spirit reveals to believers that unbelievers do not have revealed to them. Every time I read the scriptures I ask for God's discernment, a deeper understanding of His word.

GC Wrote:I would think reading a book about not believing would be boring, how much can one say about non belief. It's actually not hard to figure non belief means non belief no matter what the subject of belief might be. I'm not trying to be sarcastic just saying.

Esquilax Wrote:Actually, many of the atheist books I've read go into great detail as to the inaccuracies, inconsistencies and immoralities in the bible that led to the author becoming an atheist, or that support a secular position. What you're saying is you have a high standard for anyone with the audacity to criticize your religion, but you just won't apply that standard to yourself when it might shake your belief.

How interesting.

I spend my time reading what I know is the truth, honestly a book on atheism or other secular works denying God would not change my mind, I do not stay away from them because they scare me, I read what is relevant for my life. About the only thing I read outside of Christianity are books on woodworking. The reason books against my beliefs do not scare me is this, I've already approached those questions in my life and answered them for myself. If I was afraid of someone else's beliefs that are contrary to mine do you think I would be here, many in my church were scared for me and others say they would not have the confidence to enter in such discussions. Just to let you know I did not come here to save anyone, that's God's work, I came here to strengthen my beliefs through the challenges on an atheist site. I have, praise God!

(March 28, 2013 at 3:21 am)Godschild Wrote: Thank you for answering, many want. I would disagree with you on understanding the scriptures. I know there is a certain amount that anyone can understand, and some as yourself will see more, however there is the spiritual that the Holy Spirit reveals to believers that unbelievers do not have revealed to them. Every time I read the scriptures I ask for God's discernment, a deeper understanding of His word.

So, basically what I said: if I don't believe in god, it's just because I don't get him. From an outside perspective, one might argue that the reason you're not an atheist is because you don't get secularism. Neither of these positions say anything about the truth of whether or not a god exists, just that the person employing them believes he's levelled up his understanding, in a way.

GC Wrote:I spend my time reading what I know is the truth, honestly a book on atheism or other secular works denying God would not change my mind, I do not stay away from them because they scare me, I read what is relevant for my life. About the only thing I read outside of Christianity are books on woodworking. The reason books against my beliefs do not scare me is this, I've already approached those questions in my life and answered them for myself. If I was afraid of someone else's beliefs that are contrary to mine do you think I would be here, many in my church were scared for me and others say they would not have the confidence to enter in such discussions. Just to let you know I did not come here to save anyone, that's God's work, I came here to strengthen my beliefs through the challenges on an atheist site. I have, praise God!

Honestly, reading things that challenge your beliefs is at least useful in terms of formulating counterarguments. You say you read only things you know as the truth, but you could still be wrong. Saying that just seals you into a little experiential bubble where you only read things that confirm your beliefs whether they're accurate or not. Undoubtedly that's very good for your faith, but not so good in terms of expanding your knowledge base.

Besides, some of them atheists really can write, too.

(March 28, 2013 at 2:56 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm using these same verses to answer what I did not hide above.
Each of those tell of the person/s living out what they practice, something you did not say about your practice. Even though I said to practice baseball is not the same as playing the game, practicing will make for a better player when he is playing. You ever hear of live what you practice or maybe this one "be doers of the word and not hearers only." Living in a relationship with Christ is what separates Christians from all the rest.

smax Wrote:Wow. I gotta tell you, I am extremely disappointed. I was really hoping we might enter into a compelling and challenging debate, but you've got nothing to offer that.

And, just so it's clear that this isn't merely some type of cop out, you don't even seem to have a basic understanding of the word "practice". The very quote you use to suggest that "practice" isn't adequate in fact describes practice over inaction.

"be doers (or practitioners) of the word and not hearers only."

Practitioner means living what you believe, practice as I see many christians doing is ritualistic, going through the motion, not living out a relationship with Christ. Since you apparently did not experience Christ how am I to believe you meant anything other than going through the motions. I've experienced Christ whether you believe it or not, and because I have I can not understand how anyone could reject Him. This is were I'm coming from, experiencing Christ.

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(March 28, 2013 at 3:21 am)Godschild Wrote: Thank you for answering, many want. I would disagree with you on understanding the scriptures. I know there is a certain amount that anyone can understand, and some as yourself will see more, however there is the spiritual that the Holy Spirit reveals to believers that unbelievers do not have revealed to them. Every time I read the scriptures I ask for God's discernment, a deeper understanding of His word.

Esquilax Wrote:So, basically what I said: if I don't believe in god, it's just because I don't get him. From an outside perspective, one might argue that the reason you're not an atheist is because you don't get secularism. Neither of these positions say anything about the truth of whether or not a god exists, just that the person employing them believes he's leveled up his understanding, in a way.

For many years I lived in the secular world, and I want say I did not enjoy it, I did. The thing it did not do was bring a peace into my life, it did not answer all the questions about life I needed to know. I'm not saying that I've received all the answers through Christianity, what I do know is I have a peace and many questions answered. By the way I do question God on things in His word, but I do not stop there, I ask for His discernment, sometimes I receive it, sometimes it takes awhile, and on somethings I'm still waiting.

(March 27, 2013 at 9:12 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(March 27, 2013 at 7:07 pm)John V Wrote: I don't want or desire anyone to suffer eternal punishment, but that's how I interpret the Bible.

You perhaps don't have any active desire to see it happen to people, but perhaps you also aren't very bothered by the idea that your god inflicts it on people.

You don't want or desire it. I find it repulsive and I won't accept a dogma which insists that a god who does something like this on purpose is a good god.

So, you're the person who is more likely to interpret it (in the rare case you actually read it) according to your desires.

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(March 27, 2013 at 10:09 pm)smax Wrote: I have Christian friends, who live their lives with very little regard for the Bible and it's decrees.

As a result, they are happy, filled with a sense of liberty, and aren't constantly struggling with social and personal dilemmas.

I'm happy, filled with a sense of liberty, and not constantly struggling with social and personal dilemmas. Paul writes about the liberty we have in Christ ya know.

Quote:To answer your question, I wasn't that type of Christian. I always felt that I should be fully in it or fully out.

That doesn't answer my question. You made claims about yourself, then speak of friends in answer. Give some specific things you do now that you thought you couldn't as a Christian. This shouldn't be so hard, unless you're just making stuff up.

(March 28, 2013 at 2:39 am)smax Wrote:

(March 27, 2013 at 9:03 pm)Drich Wrote: Before i proceed with following this red herring do you conceed the rest of the arguement?

Bet you thought I forgot you, huh?

Not yet!

I read through your rather long winded testimonials, as well as your comments on morality, and I have reached the conclusion that you are exactly the type of Christian that it's my hope to prevent others from becoming. That type of Christian is the deluded type that blindly supports every notion in the bible about God, and sees nothing wrong with the many many crimes against humanity that the bible alleges to have happened as a result of god's command.

By the way, Moses was given powers from god, as were a number of other characters in the bible.

Care to demonstrate any of yours? Surely you gained some supernatural ability(s) as a result of the numerous supernatural experiences you've had.

I'll tell you what, why don't you pray to god and ask him to send me an undeniable sign of some sort? You'd think that might have happened during the 25 plus years I served as a Christian, but maybe I just needed the intercession of someone as spiritually in tune as yourself.

I'll be waiting and I'll report our findings.

Ok, ok.. So you want me to pray to God to have Him send you a sign to validate your current understanding of faith?

What if God does not want you to have your current understanding of faith? Why would He send you a sign to validate it? After all you did what you understood to do for 25 years and in all of that time God never spoke to you confirming what you understood to be truth, why would He now?

Not to mention even if He took the time to give you the 'sign' you wanted would you even be in the state of mind to recognise it? What if it came in the form of having you question everything you believe as 1thess 5:21 says do? Would you recognise your total lack of 'faith' as a sign or urging from God to have you "unlearn what you have learned" and start over?

(March 27, 2013 at 5:18 pm)John V Wrote: What greater liberty and fulfillment have you since found? Personally I can't think of anything I want to do which I can't due to Christianity.

We can do what we like on Sundays.

(March 28, 2013 at 10:30 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: We can do what we like on Sundays.

So can I. I generally like to go to church. Sometimes I don't feel like it, and I don't go.

Yeah, but what do you guys do on the Sabbath?