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April 8, 2013 at 1:48 pm (This post was last modified: April 8, 2013 at 1:49 pm by Tiberius.)
(April 8, 2013 at 1:27 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: So what is your opinion on Bobby Sands and irish catholics treatment in Ulster during her years?
I don't really have an opinion since I haven't researched them specifically. Suffice to say, one person's actions over one particular issues doesn't damn them for life in my eyes. I'm not saying Thatcher was a saint or even close to perfect; I've saying she was a good leader.
Quote:Do you think Neslon Mandela is a terrorist?
Technically speaking, Nelson Mandela at one time was a terrorist.
terrorist. noun. A person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.
Mandela helped found Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK). From Wikipedia:
Quote:Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, [n]bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links[/b] at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism." Soon after ANC leader Luthuli was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the MK publicly announced its existence with 57 bombings on Dingane's Day (16 December) 1961, followed by further attacks on New Year's Eve.
(bolding mine)
So yes, at one point, Mandela was a terrorist. He isn't one now; in fact he's probably one of the people most likely to argue for peaceful resolution of conflicts...something he argued for a lot after his release.
Quote:and do you believe that the germans will try to rule the world again?
I have no belief either way. I believe that any country can become corrupt and fascist if they let it. Germany is no exception, and certainly has a history that reflects that. Germany today is a very modern civilization, but don't kid yourself by thinking that any modern country (Germany included) is immune from fascism, or even worse.
(April 8, 2013 at 1:48 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I don't really have an opinion since I haven't researched them specifically. Suffice to say, one person's actions over one particular issues doesn't damn them for life in my eyes. I'm not saying Thatcher was a saint or even close to perfect; I've saying she was a good leader.
So you ignore the negatives?
Quote:Technically speaking, Nelson Mandela at one time was a terrorist.
terrorist. noun. A person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.
Mandela helped found Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK). From Wikipedia:
Quote:Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, [n]bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links[/b] at night, when civilians were not present. Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism." Soon after ANC leader Luthuli was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, the MK publicly announced its existence with 57 bombings on Dingane's Day (16 December) 1961, followed by further attacks on New Year's Eve.
(bolding mine)
So yes, at one point, Mandela was a terrorist. He isn't one now; in fact he's probably one of the people most likely to argue for peaceful resolution of conflicts...something he argued for a lot after his release.
Obviously one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Yet this doesnt change the fact that Thatcher sided for a disgusting racist regime and also denounced those who stood up against that regime.
Quote:I have no belief either way. I believe that any country can become corrupt and fascist if they let it. Germany is no exception, and certainly has a history that reflects that. Germany today is a very modern civilization, but don't kid yourself by thinking that any modern country (Germany included) is immune from fascism, or even worse.
rephrase:
Do you believe that the correct way of engaging in international politics is to rely on national sterotyps to draw conclusions and to believe in preconsisting historic elements within a nations culture which causes certain patterns of behavior within that sociaty to constantly reemerge.
(April 8, 2013 at 1:58 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: So you ignore the negatives?
Is that what I said? I don't think that's what I said. Being ignorant of something doesn't mean you are "ignoring" it.
Quote:Obviously one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Yes..."obviously". Sorry, but I don't condone the killing/targeting of innocent people, neither under the guise of terrorism or "freedom fighting".
You can fight for freedom without resorting to violence. Many activists in history have done this. Nelson Mandela wasn't one of them (though he became one).
Quote:Yet this doesnt change the fact that Thatcher sided for a disgusting racist regime and also denounced those who stood up against that regime.
So did a lot of people back then. We have the advantage of looking back at how things eventually ended up, and it's much easier to side with those that win. In my opinion, neither side (pro-apartheid and anti-apartheid) behaved particularly well. It's a shameful part of history for everyone involved.
Quote:Do you believe that the correct way of engaging in international politics is to rely on national sterotyps to draw conclusions and to believe in preconsisting historic elements within a nations culture which causes certain patterns of behavior within that sociaty to constantly reemerge.
We're British. Relying on national stereotypes is how all international politics is done.
Seriously though, no, I don't believe it's the correct way of engaging in international politics. Do I think Thatcher was wrong to do it? Yes. Does that affect my overall opinion of her, and the great work she did do for this country? No. People aren't perfect.
(April 8, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Is that what I said? I don't think that's what I said. Being ignorant of something doesn't mean you are "ignoring" it.
and this means:
Quote:I don't really have an opinion since I haven't researched them specifically.
something different?!?!?!?!
Quote:Yes..."obviously". Sorry, but I don't condone the killing/targeting of innocent people, neither under the guise of terrorism or "freedom fighting".
Sorry, but I dont condone nationaly implemented racism and the mandetory discrimination of civilians on the basis of their skincolor, neither under the guise of conservatism or being "against violence".
In some casis something is simply so wrong, that not being against it is wrong aswell.
Quote:You can fight for freedom without resorting to violence. Many activists in history have done this. Nelson Mandela wasn't one of them (though he became one).
No you cant. And it hasnt happened anywhere throughout history.
Quote:So did a lot of people back then. We have the advantage of looking back at how things eventually ended up, and it's much easier to side with those that win.
So you think I would side with a bunch of racists if the national african congress had failed?!?!?!
the appartheit regime was so wrong that almoust every single country in the world opposed and boycotted it, even Britain and the US - until Thatcher and Reagan took over and thought that being against appartheit and racism shouldnt stand in the way of the free market.
this has nothing to do with "we can look back" - appartheit was wrong - even by the standerds existing then!!
Quote:In my opinion, neither side (pro-apartheid and anti-apartheid) behaved particularly well. It's a shameful part of history for everyone involved.
That is not an exuse for supporting a racist regime.
The bombing of Dresden does not justify Auschwitz.
Quote:We're British. Relying on national stereotypes is how all international politics is done.
Oh really? I hope that was a joke!
Quote:Seriously though, no, I don't believe it's the correct way of engaging in international politics. Do I think Thatcher was wrong to do it? Yes. Does that affect my overall opinion of her, and the great work she did do for this country? No. People aren't perfect.
What makes you think that the "possitive things" outweigh the negative things?
Quote:The mixed economy model didn't fail. We were no more in need of Mrs Thatcher's 'painful medicine', than someone suffering from a common cold needs a course of chemotherapy.
(April 8, 2013 at 2:25 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: and this means:
Quote:I don't really have an opinion since I haven't researched them specifically.
something different?!?!?!?!
Yes...yes it does. If I were ignoring it, then I'd first have to actually know about it. I'd then have to purposefully put it out of my mind when someone else mentions it. That isn't what I'm doing.
I don't have knowledge about it; it's not something I've looked into. I am ignorant of it, but I am not ignoring it. If you want to enlighten me, please send me a few links that you think are good reads.
Quote:Sorry, but I dont condone nationaly implemented racism and the mandetory discrimination of civilians on the basis of their skincolor, neither under the guise of conservatism or being "against violence".
Neither do I.
Quote:In some casis something is simply so wrong, that not being against it is wrong aswell.
You can be against something, but not resort to violence to solve it. It's called peaceful activism. Nelson Mandela is a peace activist, but he didn't used to be. Specifically, he wasn't at the time when you reference Thatcher's opinion of him. I doubt if you'd asked Thatcher what she thought of Nelson Mandela yesterday, she would have said the same thing. People can (and do) change their minds.
Quote:No you cant. And it hasnt happened anywhere throughout history.
Are you serious? Maybe it is you who needs a history lesson. Read up on Martin Luther King Jr. for starters.
Quote:So you think I would side with a bunch of racists if the national african congress had failed?!?!?!
I can't say for sure; nobody can. Our views are shaped by the times we live in. If you were born in Africa at the time of apartheid, the chances are, you would certainly be supportive of them.
What I'm getting at is that you need to apply context to quotes. Plenty of famous and respected people said racist stuff, but at the time, it wasn't considered racist or "wrong". Times change. More importantly, people change.
Quote:the appartheit regime was so wrong that almoust every single country in the world opposed and boycotted it, even Britain and the US - until Thatcher and Reagan took over and thought that being against appartheit and racism shouldnt stand in the way of the free market.
Yeah...maybe you should actually read up on history before you just spout your imagined version of events:
April 8, 2013 at 3:08 pm (This post was last modified: April 8, 2013 at 3:10 pm by A Theist.)
(April 8, 2013 at 2:45 pm)Tiberius Wrote:
(April 8, 2013 at 2:25 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote:
and this means:
something different?!?!?!?!Yes...yes it does. If I were ignoring it, then I'd first have to actually know about it. I'd then have to purposefully put it out of my mind when someone else mentions it. That isn't what I'm doing.
I don't have knowledge about it; it's not something I've looked into. I am ignorant of it, but I am not ignoring it. If you want to enlighten me, please send me a few links that you think are good reads.
Quote:Sorry, but I dont condone nationaly implemented racism and the mandetory discrimination of civilians on the basis of their skincolor, neither under the guise of conservatism or being "against violence".
Neither do I.
Quote:In some casis something is simply so wrong, that not being against it is wrong aswell.
You can be against something, but not resort to violence to solve it. It's called peaceful activism. Nelson Mandela is a peace activist, but he didn't used to be. Specifically, he wasn't at the time when you reference Thatcher's opinion of him. I doubt if you'd asked Thatcher what she thought of Nelson Mandela yesterday, she would have said the same thing. People can (and do) change their minds.
Quote:No you cant. And it hasnt happened anywhere throughout history.
Are you serious? Maybe it is you who needs a history lesson. Read up on Martin Luther King Jr. for starters.
Quote:So you think I would side with a bunch of racists if the national african congress had failed?!?!?!
I can't say for sure; nobody can. Our views are shaped by the times we live in. If you were born in Africa at the time of apartheid, the chances are, you would certainly be supportive of them.
What I'm getting at is that you need to apply context to quotes. Plenty of famous and respected people said racist stuff, but at the time, it wasn't considered racist or "wrong". Times change. More importantly, people change.
Quote:the appartheit regime was so wrong that almoust every single country in the world opposed and boycotted it, even Britain and the US - until Thatcher and Reagan took over and thought that being against appartheit and racism shouldnt stand in the way of the free market.
Yeah...maybe you should actually read up on history before you just spout your imagined version of events:
Quote:That is not an exuse for supporting a racist regime.
The bombing of Dresden does not justify Auschwitz.
I never said it was. I've just linked to two sources which deny outright that Thatcher supported a racist regime.
Quote:Oh really? I hope that was a joke!
That's why I used a smiling emoticon. The French are all cheese-eating surrender monkeys, etc.
Quote:What makes you think that the "possitive things" outweigh the negative things?
Facts.
Another great leader of the freeworld is gone...Margaret Thatcher was one of the best...
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"
Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
(April 8, 2013 at 11:28 am)The Germans are coming Wrote: Ironicaly, I guess these remarks formed the image that germans have of brits today.
I can only hope we aren't going to be judged long term by Bush/Cheney.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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