(April 26, 2013 at 2:21 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: Certain Aspects of Certain Theistic Sects then.

But how is it an aspect of their sect? That is where I am confused. If it is something we see in all walks of life, isn't it just an aspect of humanity? I mean, I can't think of anything that links it to theism.

It's related to their worldview in that they base the goodness of their afterlife entirely on it. I rarely if ever see this in atheistic terms.

I fear people will stop trying to improve their current conditions, because of their belief of the hereafter.

The planet many things to awe at! People, who worry about the hereafter, will not enjoy the time of now.

Ah, I see. It is the connection to the afterlife that you are attributing to theism, not the hatred of the world. Thank you for clarifying.

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(April 26, 2013 at 11:52 pm)Dragonetti Wrote: I fear people will stop trying to improve their current conditions, because of their belief of the hereafter.

The planet many things to awe at! People, who worry about the hereafter, will not enjoy the time of now.

I have a similar gripe with some religious people -- those who do not do anything to stop something bad because they are sure god will fix it or god did it for some unknown reason that we must not interfere with.

(April 26, 2013 at 11:53 pm)Shell B Wrote: Ah, I see. It is the connection to the afterlife that you are attributing to theism, not the hatred of the world. Thank you for clarifying.

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(April 26, 2013 at 11:52 pm)Dragonetti Wrote: I fear people will stop trying to improve their current conditions, because of their belief of the hereafter.

The planet many things to awe at! People, who worry about the hereafter, will not enjoy the time of now.

I have a similar gripe with some religious people -- those who do not do anything to stop something bad because they are sure god will fix it or god did it for some unknown reason that we must not interfere with.

Specially when children are involved. Such as pray away a preventable condition.

(April 26, 2013 at 11:42 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: It's related to their worldview in that they base the goodness of their afterlife entirely on it. I rarely if ever see this in atheistic terms.

I see that as anti my particular theism, and anti religious. Irrational, misguided and indefensible.

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(April 26, 2013 at 11:59 pm)Dragonetti Wrote: Specially when children are involved. Such as pray away a preventable condition.

^^ and that too

I think the aspect here is not a flaw with belief at all (since we all hold a belief in some way shape or another.) It is more of a flaw with human condition. Certian personality disorders can be amphilfied by religous beliefs. Especially narrisstic or borlderline personality disorders. However, this is not a trait of religion those disorders always existed before hand.

I seen racism in chruches first hand, and saw them literally pull corrupt business move that took away my parents life insurance. Now I will not recieve a dime when they die because they found a technicality. With that said I can hold the same hatred and loathing however I am trying to remedy the human condition because we humans will use anything justify our actions. I empthanize with your position I choose the Carl Sagan approach, try to heal. I can tell you from my personal experience when you deconvert it is painful for some.

(April 26, 2013 at 12:29 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: You've got a point, Rayaan, but like Kichi said, I've heard it far less from atheists, who seem fascinated by the world if they're science minded. Most of the pissy ones have a problem with how humanity is fucking up the planet, not that the planet is in some way 'bad'.

Well, I understand that that's your opinion on this, but I disagree because I think that theists are equally fascinated by the world and many of them still have an appreciation and an interest for science, in spite of believing in a god. I don't feel discouraged from learning science either.

Even if theists are not as science minded as atheists - which is true for the most part, I suppose - I think that their fascination and awe of the world might just be a little bit different (but not necessarily lower) in the sense that their fascination originates from thinking about God's creations or by observing how wisely and beautifully He created them. The fascination of atheists, on the other hand, lies more on nature/reality itself, as opposed to a deity, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are more fascinated. Rather, it just means that there are different reasons for being fascinated by the world.

There is also the atheistic idea that religion just provides any stupid answers to gullible people to such an extent that it removes most of their sense of fascination and wonder about the world since everything ultimately boils down to "God" or "God did it" sort of thing, so that they don't have to think or investigate anymore. The world becomes less mysterious and less fascinating for them.

I find the opposite to be true, because my belief in God in fact brings a greater amount of mystery into my mind about the nature of reality and about God Himself with questions like what is God, why did he create this universe, why did he make it the way it is, what is his relationship with human language, why isn't he conceivable through logic, how does our self-awareness persist even after death, what is the soul, and many others which, in effect, only increase my level of fascination of reality.

(April 26, 2013 at 11:42 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: It's related to their worldview in that they base the goodness of their afterlife entirely on it. I rarely if ever see this in atheistic terms.

I assumed that is what you probably meant, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying now.

My understanding of Christians and Muslims as well is that we don't think that the world itself is 'bad' somehow. It's just that the afterlife is going to be much better, in almost every aspect of the word "better." That doesn't necessarily mean that we think that the present world sucks or that we hate it. From an Islamic perspective, there are many Quranic verses that speak about the beauty of this world such as by mentioning things like the sky, stars, planets, the moon , the sun, the trees, animals, plants, mountains, etc., and it tells us to reflect on these things, a lot, and to see how they are all interconnected.

The main difference is that the beauty of this world (or so we believe) is short-lived, transient, whereas the beauty of the hereafter is eternal and immensely and indescribably greater. In the Quran, for example, the earth is metaphorically described as something that gets watered, begins to grow, and then becomes "fresh and green" (like a flower), but that it will also wither away one day along with all the beauty that it contains.

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Question: When you said that Christians base the goodness of this world entirely on the goodness of their afterlife, what did you mean by "goodness," exactly? Are you using that word mainly in an aesthetic context like you were talking about in the OP? Or does it have more to do with the goodness of life itself in the afterlife (instead of just beauty)?

Or did you mean both?

The way I understood it as these people were describing it was that the afterlife (with Jesus/God) was better all around than the physical world - the physical world took your mind off "what was important." This life is a punishment and a test - not something to be enjoyed.

Please understand that I wasn't generalizing about all Christians or theists when I started this thread.

If it is better in the hereafter, then why not take yourself out of the gene pool and go there!

Also, if this is punishment, please do not procreate! You would not want to bring a innocent child to this punishment!