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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 3:25 pm
(November 26, 2008 at 11:37 am)Daystar Wrote: When you limit your idea of God to the God of the Bible, Jehovah, you are talking about the supernatural and generally that is what Atheists do. But when the apostle Paul said that ones own belly could be a god he wasn't talking about the supernatural. The word god itself doesn't imply supernatural.
No, perhaps in a strict sense the word god does not mean a supernatural being, but maybe it's simpler to agree that the common use of the word god (and especially God) implies a supernatural power? Which brings up the point that you keep making about how atheists cannot deny that there have been created gods. Clearly you're right, but that's not really the point of the discussion.
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 5:01 pm
(November 26, 2008 at 3:25 pm)lukec Wrote: No, perhaps in a strict sense the word god does not mean a supernatural being, but maybe it's simpler to agree that the common use of the word god (and especially God) implies a supernatural power? Which brings up the point that you keep making about how atheists cannot deny that there have been created gods. Clearly you're right, but that's not really the point of the discussion.
The point of the conversation was that Atheist don't have a problem with God and The Bible because it would be silly to have such a strong opinion of someone elses beliefs that are perceived by the atheists to be a fairy tale.
During the conversation there was the issue of the word god being misapplied and misunderstood by most people because of the common use itself. The common use of the word god and especially God does imply supernatural power because the common use is vastly translated and misunderstood through the Xian myth rather than Biblical accuracy. The reality, though, is that the actual majority of gods in the Bible and outside of the Bible is that most gods were created as you say.
Idols, hereos, etc. Someone who is an average Xian or Atheist might say "That ______ is a god to me" with no supernatural connotation at all if you follow the literal meaning of what a god is and interestingly at the same time all they are saying is "That _____ is to me just like God is to someone."
The point to the extended conversation as it developed is that the term Atheism and Atheist is nonsensical and misleading at best and ignorant at the least.
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 5:50 pm
The whole issue comes from the fact that christians (and muslims and jews and hindu etc) actually believe that those gods exist (outside of their minds), and have supernatural power. IF your definition of a god is "anything venerated" then yes the label atheist is wrong. But is it wrong for me to say I do not believe in the God of a Christian?
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 6:02 pm
(November 26, 2008 at 5:01 pm)Daystar Wrote: it would be silly to have such a strong opinion of someone elses beliefs that are perceived by the atheists to be a fairy tale.
Not when those beliefs form the foundation for ideas, 'morals' and action and have consequences and effects on those of us who don't believe. We have a strong opinion of someone elses beliefs, regardless of truth value, when those beliefs begin to impact our lives.
Is that silly?
Then I'm silly.
(But I already knew I was silly :p)
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 10:40 pm
(This post was last modified: November 26, 2008 at 10:43 pm by Daystar.)
(November 26, 2008 at 5:50 pm)lukec Wrote: The whole issue comes from the fact that christians (and muslims and jews and hindu etc) actually believe that those gods exist (outside of their minds), and have supernatural power. IF your definition of a god is "anything venerated" then yes the label atheist is wrong. But is it wrong for me to say I do not believe in the God of a Christian?
The point is why would you? You (meaning atheist in general) don't believe in Santa Clause and yet would not think twice in propagating the myth of Santa and Xmas.
(November 26, 2008 at 6:02 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Not when those beliefs form the foundation for ideas, 'morals' and action and have consequences and effects on those of us who don't believe. We have a strong opinion of someone elses beliefs, regardless of truth value, when those beliefs begin to impact our lives.
Exactly. You don't care about what to you seems a myth (the Bible and God) you have the strong opinion on the social and political effects.
Xians as well as atheists themselves seldom realize this or at least they don't seem to address it.
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 10:50 pm
(November 26, 2008 at 10:40 pm)Daystar Wrote: Exactly. You don't care about what to you seems a myth (the Bible and God) you have the strong opinion on the social and political effects.
Xians as well as atheists themselves seldom realize this or at least they don't seem to address it.
Ok, I think I understand the distinction you're making - but it could still be argued that we care what people believe, regardless of truth value, because beliefs inform actions, and actions have effects on others. Therefore at times we may directly address the substance of your beliefs, rather than the indirect manifestation of those beliefs.
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 26, 2008 at 10:57 pm
(November 26, 2008 at 10:50 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Ok, I think I understand the distinction you're making - but it could still be argued that we care what people believe, regardless of truth value, because beliefs inform actions, and actions have effects on others. Therefore at times we may directly address the substance of your beliefs, rather than the indirect manifestation of those beliefs.
Interesting.
Beliefs inform actions ... hmmmm ... I'm not sure how that would play out. Could you give me an example of how belief informs actions in a Xian context from the perspective of an Atheist so I could better understand whay you mean? Also how might that be reversed - (non) belief informing actions from the Xian perspective?
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 27, 2008 at 4:14 am
(November 26, 2008 at 11:37 am)Daystar Wrote: (November 26, 2008 at 5:20 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (November 24, 2008 at 12:45 pm)Daystar Wrote: It is interesting that life on other planets is always perceived as being superior to our own. They are always far more advanced than we are.
Firstly, that isn't true ... "Stargate" (film & and two spin-off TV series) springs to mind where the "aliens" are most definitely not always perceived as advanced (more often rather primitive) and series such as "Star Trek", "Firefly", "Babylon 5", "Doctor Who" and so on will contain stories featuring more primitive races. Secondly, when you're talking about films (for instance) where aliens visit Earth yes, they are usually superior but that makes some sense because such scenarios tend to be set in the [then] present day against aliens who have come from a supposedly far flung world and as such they almost certainly must have technology greater than ours as we have only go unmanned satellites to anything other than the moon.
You are talking about science fiction though. Being a great fan of Frank Herbert's Dune I would agree with you there, but the general public tends to speculate for the most part that alien life is far more advanced than we are. It is almost a utopian reflection.
Let's see ... first you claim alien life is always seen to be superior so I offer two arguments for that, you dismiss one based on it being science fiction (and I agree it was but you did not specify that in the point you made) and you appear to dismiss the other for some vague reason that the public *tends* to speculate ...
Firstly, disregarding science fiction (which sets us in the real world of today), I would say that it is still true that any alien race must necessarily have come across a minimum if 4 light years of space (something beyond our current capability) and so almost certainly WOULD be more advanced than we are and secondly, the general public? As far as I can tell the vast majority of people simply don't even think about such things, certainly not in non-SF terms.
I have to say that your answer disappointed me a little and leads me to suspect that you won't concede even the most reasonable point whether it is about religion or not.
Kyu
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 27, 2008 at 11:15 am
(This post was last modified: November 27, 2008 at 11:17 am by Daystar.)
(November 27, 2008 at 4:14 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Let's see ... first you claim alien life is always seen to be superior so I offer two arguments for that, you dismiss one based on it being science fiction (and I agree it was but you did not specify that in the point you made) and you appear to dismiss the other for some vague reason that the public *tends* to speculate ...
Firstly, disregarding science fiction (which sets us in the real world of today), I would say that it is still true that any alien race must necessarily have come across a minimum if 4 light years of space (something beyond our current capability) and so almost certainly WOULD be more advanced than we are and secondly, the general public? As far as I can tell the vast majority of people simply don't even think about such things, certainly not in non-SF terms.
I have to say that your answer disappointed me a little and leads me to suspect that you won't concede even the most reasonable point whether it is about religion or not.
Kyu
I concede oh mighty Kyu god emperor of all wisdom. I concede.
Just for fun.
What I was talking about was what, from my own personal experience, both in real life and online, people tend to think of extra terrestrial life existing without the stipulation that they had made contact with us.
You mentioned sci-fi examples that transcend my own personal observations of public opinion and I conceded offering one of my own sci-fi examples. Frank Herbert's Dune chronicles. You made some good points in what I thought was a good discussion.
I know that the point of the bitter Atheist is to beat down and silence the opposition but I will simply not be so easily beaten down, sir! Because my ego is even bigger than yours
Joking of course.
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RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
November 27, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Damn you Kyu, *I* wanted to be God Emperor of all wisdom
Atheism as a Religion
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A man also or woman that hath a Macintosh, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with used and abandoned Windows 3.1 floppy disks: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
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