People have asked me how do I know with any certainty that deities do not exist - not just deities of certain religions like Yahweh/Allah/ but deities in general. I have many reasons to believe that deities do not, never did, and cannot exist. I will list some of my reasons:

1.) Deities are by definition either supernatural (unnatural) beings, or beings with supernatural powers. Now what is supernatural? No one has appointed out the supernatural in reality - because it is supernatural, duh! Another word for supernatural is unnatural. Unnatural things do not exist in reality. Deities are supernatural by definition - therefore, deities do not exist.

2.) Consider the things that are supernatural in human religions and cultures: Fire breathing dragons, griffins, phoenixes, elves, dwarves, trolls, gnomes, fairies, leprechauns, smurfs, gargoyles, sea serpents, mermaids, sirens, unicorns, centaurs, minotaurs, demons, angels, etc. You know, beings and creatures that have not been demonstrated to exist in reality but only in fairytales, stories, and religious books. Deities and demigods are just like the above - only demonstrated to exist - in the human imagination.

3.) Consider the deities that have been worshiped and revered in the past like the Greco-Roman gods and the Norse gods. Lightning was for millenia evidence of the power of Zeus. Lightning was magical, supernatural. Who threw the lightning bolts? What is lightning made of? It's all in the power of Zeus, of course! That is, until it was figured out that lightning was just atmospheric phenomena with perfectly natural causes - nobody makes and throws lightning bolts, they just happen. What is Zeus without lightning? And so on with Apollo who rode the chariot across the sky with the Sun in it, and with Poseidon ruler of the ocean depths, etc. These deities all had attributes that explain phenomena that is now understood to be natural. What are these deities without their raisons d'etre?

This is not an exhaustive list of why I know that deities do not exist but these are the main ones. And I'll be more than happy to discuss things further with you guys.

I agree that we never experience the supernatural in this world and that things we make up are usually made up, but I still disagree. I think the supernatural only exists outside the natural universe, what we call the natural universe. My current theory is that god is a being that lives in another plane of existence and only functions as a creator. It's possible that he interacts with the universes it creates, but I'm not going into that now. I see things as god creating universes and laying out the programming or "laws" of those universes and setting things into motion. I can understand that this might be a silly belief to a lot of people here, but It's still possible. I've always liked to think of the universe like a computer, and god as the programmer or even the thing that makes sure the whole thing doesn't crash. I will admit there's a high chance that I'm wrong, but that's still not 100%

(May 11, 2013 at 10:33 pm)Faith Is Glorified Delusion Wrote: People have asked me how do I know with any certainty that deities do not exist - not just deities of certain religions like Yahweh/Allah/ but deities in general. I have many reasons to believe that deities do not, never did, and cannot exist.

Are you sure you know what is meant by a god? That is something I've never been clear on. What exactly counts as one? Even if you think you know, are you sure you understand what other people have in mind? I don't think there is really all that much agreement.

My inclination is to think it is all silly stuff of course but is awfully hard to know exactly what we are talking about. I do agree that "supernatural" is a suspect category. It seems patently obvious to me that everything there is or could be is natural. The only meaningful distinction is between natural we understand and natural we don't yet understand.

Personally I just don't give enough of a fuck about whether or not gods exist -whatever they might be- to invest any belief one way or the other in them. I just don't think it is either urgent or important enough to deserve a decision from me.

Until you define what a "god" is, it's impossible to be gnostic about it. And, to go a step further, how do you know if your definition of "god" is the correct one?

OP, no offense, but I think being a gnostic anything when it comes to the supernatural is intellectually dishonest.

(May 12, 2013 at 12:42 am)Gearbreak Wrote: I agree that we never experience the supernatural in this world and that things we make up are usually made up, but I still disagree. I think the supernatural only exists outside the natural universe, what we call the natural universe. My current theory is that god is a being that lives in another plane of existence and only functions as a creator. It's possible that he interacts with the universes it creates, but I'm not going into that now. I see things as god creating universes and laying out the programming or "laws" of those universes and setting things into motion. I can understand that this might be a silly belief to a lot of people here, but It's still possible. I've always liked to think of the universe like a computer, and god as the programmer or even the thing that makes sure the whole thing doesn't crash. I will admit there's a high chance that I'm wrong, but that's still not 100%

Deistic beliefs are more tenable than theistic beliefs where deists don't presume a supernatural agent much less a personal one. But my position isn't against deistic claims but theistic claims. I am a gnostic atheist, not a gnostic adeist. I, like you, reject the supernatural aka unnatural because it doesn't exist. Gods are traditionally defined as supernatural agents, and since the supernatural doesn't exist - therefore gods do not exist. If an agent is not of this universe but of any other hypothetical universe then it is a still a natural and not a supernatural agent. However, I don't agree with Deism due to the position of an agent creating the universe and letting run without detection is indistinguishable from the theory of a universe arriving by natural causes.

(May 12, 2013 at 1:46 am)whateverist Wrote: Are you sure you know what is meant by a god? That is something I've never been clear on. What exactly counts as one? Even if you think you know, are you sure you understand what other people have in mind? I don't think there is really all that much agreement.

My inclination is to think it is all silly stuff of course but is awfully hard to know exactly what we are talking about. I do agree that "supernatural" is a suspect category. It seems patently obvious to me that everything there is or could be is natural. The only meaningful distinction is between natural we understand and natural we don't yet understand.

Personally I just don't give enough of a fuck about whether or not gods exist -whatever they might be- to invest any belief one way or the other in them. I just don't think it is either urgent or important enough to deserve a decision from me.

When I say gods/deities, I define them as humans have defined them through out the millennia - as supernatural beings with supernatural powers, most of them are/were depicted with anthropomorphic traits like joy, anger, jealousy, wrath, lust, greed, loving, forgiving etc., some were depicted as half animal half human anatomies. They were/are usually have a niche in governing a specific area in nature or in human affairs.

And I too do not give a fuck whether gods are real or not. There just as real to me as all the other mythological beings and creatures depicted in religions and cultures. But too many people do give a fuck if their god is real - many are making life difficult for their fellow man because of it.

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(May 12, 2013 at 2:10 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Until you define what a "god" is, it's impossible to be gnostic about it. And, to go a step further, how do you know if your definition of "god" is the correct one?

OP, no offense, but I think being a gnostic anything when it comes to the supernatural is intellectually dishonest.

It is not my definition of what deities are it is the theists' definition of what their gods are. My position is that out of all the deities that have been worshiped and their attributes throughout the historical record what did they all have in common? They were depicted as supernatural agents imbued with supernatural powers and strengths.

Right. So that's your definition (or at least the definition you're working with) of what a god is. It's still supernatural, by your own definition, therefore my point still stands that it's intellectually dishonest and impossible to be "gnostic" about anything supernatural.

Quote:People have asked me how do I know with any certainty that deities do not exist - not just deities of certain religions like Yahweh/Allah/ but deities in general.

It is not up to you to demonstrate that gods do not exist. The proponents of such bullshit bear the responsibility to demonstrate - by real evidence not pious prattle - that THEIR god exists.

Simply tell them that you see no evidence whatsoever for any gods and then sit back and laugh while they proceed to pull stuff out of their asses.

(May 12, 2013 at 2:55 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: Right. So that's your definition (or at least the definition you're working with) of what a god is. It's still supernatural, by your own definition, therefore my point still stands that it's intellectually dishonest and impossible to be "gnostic" about anything supernatural.

No it is not my definition. I do not depict gods as supernatural agents - theists do. They define their gods as supernatural agents. Since there is no supernatural, therefore there are no gods. That's my position.

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(May 12, 2013 at 3:01 am)Minimalist Wrote: It is not up to you to demonstrate that gods do not exist. The proponents of such bullshit bear the responsibility to demonstrate - by real evidence not pious prattle - that THEIR god exists.

Simply tell them that you see no evidence whatsoever for any gods and then sit back and laugh while they proceed to pull stuff out of their asses.

Exactly.

I'm sorry, but if you don't have your own working definition of what a "god" is, how can you be gnostic about such a thing?

(May 12, 2013 at 3:30 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: I'm sorry, but if you don't have your own working definition of what a "god" is, how can you be gnostic about such a thing?

I've already defined what gods are - supernatural agents with supernatural powers who rule over certain realms as depicted by theists both ancient and present. There have been many gods with many attributes - but what they all have in common is that all gods are supernatural in nature - unnatural. Hence they cannot exist because the supernatural does not exist.

My position is a counterclaim to theists who assert that supernatural agents such as gods exist.