(May 28, 2013 at 7:50 pm)Consilius Wrote: Nope. They keep on having free will after the Flood. Egyptians decide to worship the sun, and the Incas decide to do human sacrifice. To preserve true worship and complete moral code, God chooses…Abraham!

"And the Lord hardend Pharao`s heart"

Do you know this phrase????

I do, and it means god doesnt give a fuck about free will.

(May 28, 2013 at 7:52 pm)catfish Wrote:

(May 28, 2013 at 7:50 pm)Consilius Wrote: Nope. They keep on having free will after the Flood. Egyptians decide to worship the sun, and the Incas decide to do human sacrifice. To preserve true worship and complete moral code, God chooses…Abraham!

Isn't the "sacrifice" of Jesus that of a fully human person?

Yes, it is. At least it was to Jesus. Jesus, the person who willingly died, and Christians, thought of it as self-sacrifice—Jesus got HIMSELF killed on purpose. To the Roman soldiers and the people in Jerusalem, they were punishing a blasphemer, not killing somebody so God would bless the.

(May 28, 2013 at 7:58 pm)Consilius Wrote: Yes, it is. At least it was to Jesus. Jesus, the person who willingly died, and Christians, thought of it as self-sacrifice—Jesus got HIMSELF killed on purpose. To the Roman soldiers and the people in Jerusalem, they were punishing a blasphemer, not killing somebody so God would bless the.

That wasn't what I was expecting.
Specifically, do you think that a person must accept the human sacrifice of Jesus to attone for sins?

(May 28, 2013 at 7:55 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote:

(May 28, 2013 at 7:50 pm)Consilius Wrote: Nope. They keep on having free will after the Flood. Egyptians decide to worship the sun, and the Incas decide to do human sacrifice. To preserve true worship and complete moral code, God chooses…Abraham!

"And the Lord hardend Pharao`s heart"

Do you know this phrase????

I do, and it means god doesnt give a fuck about free will.

When the Bible was written, everyone was a theist. That's why it needs interpretation. God knew what Pharaoh would do to the Israelites, but, at the same time, he KNEW it was going to happen, and at the time that he wanted. He didn't make Pharaoh hate Moses in the other sense.
Of course, the awestruck Jewish men who wrote the Torah gave God credit for their Exodus in a much more direct manner. To take that part literally, would, of course, contradict the Bible.

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(May 28, 2013 at 8:02 pm)catfish Wrote:

(May 28, 2013 at 7:58 pm)Consilius Wrote: Yes, it is. At least it was to Jesus. Jesus, the person who willingly died, and Christians, thought of it as self-sacrifice—Jesus got HIMSELF killed on purpose. To the Roman soldiers and the people in Jerusalem, they were punishing a blasphemer, not killing somebody so God would bless the.

That wasn't what I was expecting.
Specifically, do you think that a person must accept the human sacrifice of Jesus to attone for sins?

God got that covered when Jesus died. We're all good. Christians accept Jesus' death and resurrection by quoting the Bible, but, in the morally good acts you do, and in the way you love other people, you are actually serving God, and, at the same time, recognizing Jesus' sacrifice without knowing it.

(May 28, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote: When the Bible was written, everyone was a theist. That's why it needs interpretation. God knew what Pharaoh would do to the Israelites, but, at the same time, he KNEW it was going to happen, and at the time that he wanted. He didn't make Pharaoh hate Moses in the other sense.
Of course, the awestruck Jewish men who wrote the Torah gave God credit for their Exodus in a much more direct manner. To take that part literally, would, of course, contradict the Bible.

But the same passage is in the Qur'an and it clearly states that God hardened the Pharoah's heart as a punishment for the Pharoah. The Pharoah begged and pleaded Moses to ask God to stop the punishment raining down on the city on the condition that the Pharoah would believe and also release the Jews. But when the punishment from the city was lifted, Pharoah turned back on his word and refused to believe, so his heart was hardened to ensure that he dies as a disbeliever.

[quote='Consilius' pid='451357' dateline='1369785856']

[quote]When the Bible was written, everyone was a theist. That's why it needs interpretation. [/quote]

explain that od phrase.

[quote]God knew what Pharaoh would do to the Israelites, but, at the same time, he KNEW it was going to happen, and at the time that he wanted. He didn't make Pharaoh hate Moses in the other sense. [/quote]

yes he did, the phrase clearly says so, knowing the impact his actions will have in the future only makes it worse.

If a murderer is aware of his action`s consequences before commiting a murder he is sentenced to a longer term on the grounds of it being (in legal terms) "a deliberate act of crime"

[quote]Of course, the awestruck Jewish men who wrote the Torah gave God credit for their Exodus in a much more direct manner.[/quote]

Thereby forgetting what he previously stated, thereby proving god is eigther senile or the bronze age nomads made that stuff up.

[quote] To take that part literally, would, of course, contradict the Bible.[/quote]

Which is what I am doing. And which you and every other bible follower refuses to do, otherwise you would be demanding the death penalty for homosexuals.

(May 28, 2013 at 7:40 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: The reason I answered it was because it was obvious what you meant. I pointed out that it was loaded because you were directly asking me a question based on a definition I didn't agree with, and had pointed out so.

Again, that's not what a loaded question is. Disagreeing with a definition used in a question doesn't make it a loaded question. A loaded question "contains a controversial or unjustified assumption". Perhaps it's different in America, but in England we say a woman is pregnant with a baby, not a foetus or embryo.

Quote:Also, please don't doubt my intelligence. I'm fully aware of what a loaded question is.

This has nothing to do with doubting your intelligence. One can be intelligent and not understand what a loaded question is. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The writers of the Bible weren't trying to be apologetic. At all. Except, maybe Paul. So the Bible makes sense when you bring out the true meaning behind the weird words. Take parables, for instance.
The Egyptians CHOSE to fight the Israelites. When they did that, God punished them. He knew they wouldn't let Israel go, waited for it to happen, and them punished them accordingly. God took no action that influenced what Pharaoh did, except, maybe, not destroying the land of Egypt with a giant fireball on the day it became a nation, so they wouldn't enslave the Israelites hundreds of years later under and entirely new government.
God never told anybody what to write down about the Exodus, he just did what he did and let the Jews write it down for themselves and give it to their children.

(May 28, 2013 at 8:09 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: [quote='Consilius' pid='451357' dateline='1369785856']

Quote:When the Bible was written, everyone was a theist. That's why it needs interpretation.

explain that od phrase.

Quote:God knew what Pharaoh would do to the Israelites, but, at the same time, he KNEW it was going to happen, and at the time that he wanted. He didn't make Pharaoh hate Moses in the other sense.

yes he did, the phrase clearly says so, knowing the impact his actions will have in the future only makes it worse.

If a murderer is aware of his action`s consequences before commiting a murder he is sentenced to a longer term on the grounds of it being (in legal terms) "a deliberate act of crime"

Quote:Of course, the awestruck Jewish men who wrote the Torah gave God credit for their Exodus in a much more direct manner.

Thereby forgetting what he previously stated, thereby proving god is eigther senile or the bronze age nomads made that stuff up.

Quote: To take that part literally, would, of course, contradict the Bible.

Which is what I am doing. And which you and every other bible follower refuses to do, otherwise you would be demanding the death penalty for homosexuals.

(May 28, 2013 at 8:04 pm)Consilius Wrote:

(May 28, 2013 at 7:55 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: "And the Lord hardend Pharao`s heart"

Do you know this phrase????

I do, and it means god doesnt give a fuck about free will.

When the Bible was written, everyone was a theist. That's why it needs interpretation. God knew what Pharaoh would do to the Israelites, but, at the same time, he KNEW it was going to happen, and at the time that he wanted. He didn't make Pharaoh hate Moses in the other sense.
Of course, the awestruck Jewish men who wrote the Torah gave God credit for their Exodus in a much more direct manner. To take that part literally, would, of course, contradict the Bible.

"I can't explain away a direct quote that interjects with a persons Free Will, so I'm gonna pretend it's not there and just act as if the person would act in that manner despite God's actions."

(May 28, 2013 at 8:32 pm)Sal Wrote: "I can't explain away a direct quote that interjects with a persons Free Will, so I'm gonna pretend it's not there and just act as if the person would act in that manner despite God's actions."

What's wrong? Did he take away your literal fundy stance? Awwwww...