(June 5, 2013 at 11:10 am)little_monkey Wrote: But it's not possible for matter not to be in motion. That would violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. And for God, it would imply, he isn't thinking from moment to moment. He would be frozen in "time", if you postulate that time doesn't exist for him. Not matter how you cut it, you run into a contradiction. If God existed before he created the universe, then time existed for him. But then you've got the other conundrum. He had to exist for an eternity of time, prior to the creation of the universe. And then one can easily postulate that the universe could have existed for an eternity. God is then superfluous.

I agree with the fact that God obviously exists within His own time frame, eternally. I don't think it makes sense for time not to exist for Him. But then again, nothing about God makes sense.

(June 5, 2013 at 11:20 am)ideologue08 Wrote:

(June 5, 2013 at 11:10 am)little_monkey Wrote: But it's not possible for matter not to be in motion. That would violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. And for God, it would imply, he isn't thinking from moment to moment. He would be frozen in "time", if you postulate that time doesn't exist for him. Not matter how you cut it, you run into a contradiction. If God existed before he created the universe, then time existed for him. But then you've got the other conundrum. He had to exist for an eternity of time, prior to the creation of the universe. And then one can easily postulate that the universe could have existed for an eternity. God is then superfluous.

I agree with the fact that God obviously exists within His own time frame, eternally. I don't think it makes sense for time not to exist for Him. But then again, nothing about God makes sense.

Whether you look at God as the creator of the universe or an entity that is all-powerful, all-knowledgeable, all-good, with each of those attributes, you've got problems. That's the reason why I don't believe in the existence of any god, as there are no convincing argument that compels me to believe in one.

(June 5, 2013 at 11:31 am)little_monkey Wrote: Whether you look at God as the creator of the universe or an entity that is all-powerful, all-knowledgeable, all-good, with each of those attributes, you've got problems. That's the reason why I don't believe in the existence of any god, as there are no convincing argument that compels me to believe in one.

Well...I don't have any problems, but I can see the broader point you're making. If you care at all about the subject, I think you should probably get off the internet in all honesty and ask people why they believe what they believe, the internet has many disadvantages when it comes to debates in real life. There is only ever one person I know who changed his mind about God from internet debates, and even he gave me his phone number and we met up because he was a student a local university. He actually converted to Islam from Agnosticism around 2 years after I met him first in 2010 which I found extremely surprising.

(June 5, 2013 at 11:36 am)ideologue08 Wrote:

(June 5, 2013 at 11:31 am)little_monkey Wrote: Whether you look at God as the creator of the universe or an entity that is all-powerful, all-knowledgeable, all-good, with each of those attributes, you've got problems. That's the reason why I don't believe in the existence of any god, as there are no convincing argument that compels me to believe in one.

Well...I don't have any problems, but I can see the broader point you're making. If you care at all about the subject, I think you should probably get off the internet in all honesty and ask people why they believe what they believe, the internet has many disadvantages when it comes to debates in real life. There is only ever one person I know who changed his mind about God from internet debates, and even he gave me his phone number and we met up because he was a student a local university. He actually converted to Islam from Agnosticism around 2 years after I met him first in 2010 which I found extremely surprising.

I became an atheist way before the internet. When I was studying in university, computers were the size of a three block apartment house. I used punched cards to write my programs on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card

(June 5, 2013 at 11:43 am)little_monkey Wrote: I became an atheist way before the internet. When I was studying in university, computers were the size of a three block apartment house. I used punched cards to write my programs on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card

Fucking hell. Alright fair enough, you're proper old school Atheist. Not the hippy Dawkins/Hitchens worshipping ones then.

Hmm, not good policy for an atheist to worship anyone, whoever that may be.

(June 5, 2013 at 10:13 am)paulpablo Wrote:

Quote: Ok so just one question, does god exist outside of time at this moment?

If you mean this (current) moment? God's action are done within time
If you mean at the first event, then time didn't exist then.

Ok so is god within time right now?

If he isn't then how are his actions within time?

Also why could there not be two Gods existing separate from the universe and time?

For example in your definition you have

(God) (universe, space time, humanity, gods actions)

So why could you not have

(god) (god) (god) (god) (universe, space, time, humanity, gods actions)

Why is the second one not possible?, the gods aren't related to each other, they simply exist the same as your god does, separate from everything else including one another.

Don't forget the awesome opportunity to have multiple gods, each with it's own pet universe...
Or multiple gods, each with lots of pet universes.
Non-overlapping universes.... overlapping universes... this could become fun...
Think of it as children playing:
- You can have one playing with LEGO (one god, one universe)
- One kid playing with transformers and hot wheels (one god, two universes)
- multiple kids playing with LEGOs, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Transformers, Hot Wheels, and a few girls with their barbies and other baby dolls. Each kid in their corner with their toy.
- Or the same as above, but all kids playing together in an awesome toy brawl! Or just a few groups of kids playing together, while other kids play by themselves.

Ah... the possibilities are virtually limitless... and we, as a member of this particular universe, are unable to determine which is the real situation.... if any. We can't measure anything beyond our universe, last I checked...

(June 2, 2013 at 8:50 am)little_monkey Wrote: Any knowledge of General Relativity will tell you that spacetime exists together with matter. If no matter, then no spacetime. And GR has overwhelming evidence supporting it. What you have in your case is idle speculations which are groundless.

His case is firmly grounded in batshit insanity.

(June 5, 2013 at 11:20 am)ideologue08 Wrote: nothing about God makes sense.

Finally something we agree on.

(June 5, 2013 at 11:56 am)pocaracas Wrote: Don't forget the awesome opportunity to have multiple gods, each with it's own pet universe...
Or multiple gods, each with lots of pet universes.
Non-overlapping universes.... overlapping universes... this could become fun...
Think of it as children playing:
- You can have one playing with LEGO (one god, one universe)
- One kid playing with transformers and hot wheels (one god, two universes)
- multiple kids playing with LEGOs, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Transformers, Hot Wheels, and a few girls with their barbies and other baby dolls. Each kid in their corner with their toy.
- Or the same as above, but all kids playing together in an awesome toy brawl! Or just a few groups of kids playing together, while other kids play by themselves.

Ah... the possibilities are virtually limitless... and we, as a member of this particular universe, are unable to determine which is the real situation.... if any. We can't measure anything beyond our universe, last I checked...

All these options are refuted in the proof
The only possible option (which I cannot prove) is to have one supreme God with some others below him but in this case they will be created by him,i.e. the only possible option is to have one (not created) God

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(June 5, 2013 at 11:43 am)little_monkey Wrote: I became an atheist way before the internet. When I was studying in university, computers were the size of a three block apartment house. I used punched cards to write my programs on.

Yet, you believe that all the Universe programs were created by "NOTHING"

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(June 5, 2013 at 11:31 am)little_monkey Wrote: That's the reason why I don't believe in the existence of any god, as there are no convincing argument that compels me to believe in one.

Now there is a solid proof, which is far better than an argument.

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(June 5, 2013 at 9:43 am)little_monkey Wrote:

(June 5, 2013 at 1:50 am)Muslim Scholar Wrote: God will not exist inside time at the first event because time itself doesn't exist.

If God exists before the universe was created, then time also exists for him. You can't separate time from existence. The moment you postulate the existence of anything, be it God or the universe, then time is automatically implied.

What do you mean by time here?

According to my definition (a sequence of events) then before the first event, God exists but no time as not event occurred yet.

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(June 5, 2013 at 10:13 am)paulpablo Wrote: Ok so is god within time right now?
If he isn't then how are his actions within time?

According to the definition time only exists when events (more than one) exists, so if God's actions happens they must happen in time (except for the first event)

But to say that God himself is inside time, this will imply that some events happens within himself (i.e. for us it is our heart beating or blood flow or signals in our nerves)
For God this will be impossible as it require a first event as well (i.e. created) which is impossible.
God is on entity and not constructed from different parts working together.

Quote:Also why could there not be two Gods existing separate from the universe and time?

I already answered that
If multiple Gods exists, even if they don't know anything about each other and no interactions between them
Only one God must start the first event and create the others, so the other is not a God.