Quote:Biblically, everyone is damned. This is an act of justice, which is getting what you deserve. Salvation is not an act of justice, it is an act of mercy and grace. Mercy and grace are undeserved, and God can deal them out as he likes. Like many critics, you incorrectly conflate justice and mercy.

To be born into a criminal sentence is justice? To inherit a criminal sentence for the crime of a man who (never) lived thousands of years ago is justice?

You can call God's salvation mercy, because choosing not to punish someone when you have the power to do so is merciful, but let's not misuse the word 'grace'. Graceful forgiveness would only be possible under a just legislator and just laws. We may argue on what makes a law just, but I imagine you live either in the same country I do or one with a similar legal structure, and you would probably not wish to submit to the legal system based upon despotic fiat. I, personally, would not make an exception for any despot, including your god. I recognize as valid no legal system imposed upon me by a legislator who considers himself above his own laws.

(June 13, 2013 at 11:04 am)Ryantology Wrote: To be born into a criminal sentence is justice? To inherit a criminal sentence for the crime of a man who (never) lived thousands of years ago is justice?

We're sentenced for our own crimes. Regarding those who die as children, an age of accountability doctrine can be derived from Scripture.

Quote:You can call God's salvation mercy, because choosing not to punish someone when you have the power to do so is merciful, but let's not misuse the word 'grace'. Graceful forgiveness would only be possible under a just legislator and just laws. We may argue on what makes a law just, but I imagine you live either in the same country I do or one with a similar legal structure, and you would probably not wish to submit to the legal system based upon despotic fiat.

From another human, I agree, but this isn't coming from another human.

Quote:I, personally, would not make an exception for any despot, including your god. I recognize as valid no legal system imposed upon me by a legislator who considers himself above his own laws.

I, personally, believe a creator has the right to do with his creation as he wishes. We've discussed mankind's treatment of other species (which we didn't even create) and you haven't gotten around that point yet.

(June 13, 2013 at 9:28 am)John V Wrote: To my knowledge the Amish have similar or more severe positions re: blasphemy, idolatry and apostasy as other Christians, yet increasing their numbers isn’t a high priority. This isn’t glossing over the point. When you make a claim regarding the nature of religion, showing counterexamples is sufficient to refute the claim. A big problem with your initial post is that it has a number of such sweeping and unsupported generalizations regarding both religious and secular positions. You’d do well to restate it, narrowing the scope to a single religion.

You're desperately trying to muddy the issue.

Theistic Morality: Tends by nature to be concerned with victimless crimes like blasphemy, idolatry and apostasy as well as exalting useless activities like prayer and adherence to rituals.

Secular Morality: isn't

You are free to say, "but Christians can be good people too" and "well, what about this passage in the Bible that says good things" and "oh yeah, well this religion is a little different" and all that is beside the point (and smacks of red herring evasion).

Quote:And the fact that the Bible includes it [the golden rule] shows that the Bible does offer explanation regarding morality, refuting your charge that it merely says GodWillsIt.

Again, this is beside the point. Sure the Bible contains some good stuff but all of it can be just as easily admonished by secularists without the need to a god.

The argument I'm addressing when I use the term GodWillsIt is the belief among some apologists that morality requires a celestial lawgiver. My refutation is that GodWillsIt is neither necessary nor helpful to understand or discuss morality.

Quote:Sure. Your point 3 regarded satisfying rational explanations of morality. A system which is admittedly arbitrary by definition does not supply such answers.

You're right in that I misspoke. I meant "the worst of", since Yahweh's dictatorial edicts on morality have no more validity than that of a mafia don or a tin-pot dictator and, reading the Bible, they're just as prone to changing tomorrow on a whim. Yahweh can say "thou shalt not kill" one day and order a genocide the next.

Quote:As previously noted, you do this yourself, although I wouldn’t call you slick at it.

Logical Fallacies: Ad Hominem Tu Quoque and Bare Assertioon

Quote:Biblically, everyone is damned. This is an act of justice, which is getting what you deserve. Salvation is not an act of justice, it is an act of mercy and grace. Mercy and grace are undeserved, and God can deal them out as he likes. Like many critics, you incorrectly conflate justice and mercy.

1. No, nobody deserves to be tortured for all eternity.
2. This "mercy" you speak of is only doled out to the gullible and sycophantic, indicating what's really important to your god Yahweh. This is not about punishment or justice but control.

Your god sounds like a wife beater and you like the battered wife trying to justify the abuse saying "he really loves me and I guess I deserve it when he beats me."

Quote:

Quote:We don't require a woman to marry her rapist but Yahweh does.

Where does he require that? I’ve debated this before and doubt you’ve really considered the passages in question.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law...2_28a.html

...and the flimsy apologist rationalizations ensue in 3... 2...

Quote:The word genocide itself was only coined in the twentieth century to refer to current events. And again, sex slaves in licensed German brothels.

Oh well then, I guess since the word wasn't around and that some humans still commit crimes, I guess that completely refutes my argument that human society has determined things to be wrong that Yahweh couldn't.

Quote:You stated plain out that secular morality is superior.

...and pointing out that there are other bad ideologies out there is a logical fallacy called "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque." Just because there are other bad ideologies out there too does nothing to justify the abuses of religion.

Quote:Regarding group dynamics, both religious and secular groups can be dangerous. It’s a function of groups, not religion.

Any religion that promotes the idea of a faith-based scheme of salvation is inherently dangerous, given how high the stakes are. If saving thousands of souls for all eternity means killing some unrepentant heathen to prevent him from corrupting those thousands and leading them off the path of salvation, isn't that a good thing?

Quote:Religions also have reality checks that can eventually stop them. If the proof is in the pudding, consider that Europe hasn’t had an inquisition in some time now.

You can thank secular reason and modernity for that.

Quote:Seriously? A paper by a dinosaur illustrator with no training in social research is the best you can do?

Is ad hominems the best you can do or would you like to refute his findings?

(June 13, 2013 at 11:13 am)John V Wrote: We're sentenced for our own crimes.

No, we're sentenced for not being gullible and for not being sycophants to your abusive god.

At the end of the day, that's all that matters. Those who are gullible, who believed what they were told and lucky enough to have been indoctrinated into the correct religion are "saved". Those who are not gullible enough are "damned".

Quote:I, personally, believe a creator has the right to do with his creation as he wishes.

Another great gem.

Parents do not have the right to do with their children as they will. If we ever create AI that thinks and feels, we will not have the right to do with it as we will.

But to you, we're just toys in Yahweh's sandbox. You've already said he decides what is or isn't moral (which, as already discussed, makes your morality neither objective nor absolute) and now you've elaborated as to why.

You're take on Christianity is morally bankrupt, your philosophy is childish (still stuck in the pre-conventional stage of Kohlberg's classification of the development of moral reasoning) and your god has all the moral authority of a spoiled two-year old.

Theistic morality is secular morality+. It isn't separate. Theistic morality includes a morally perfect god. What you see in acknowledgement of that in the first commandments. You seem to have your own perverse view of God. To understand theistic morality, you're going to have to look at it impartially. None of us, theist or atheist has a magic pass. All we have is our intentions and our Acton's. Just because one person has a better plan, doesn't mean that person wins the game.

Morality based upon no justice cannot ever compete with morality based upon perfect justice. That's the difference between secular and theistic morality. Morality with God wins hands down.

(June 14, 2013 at 5:13 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Theistic morality includes a morally perfect god.

That would be false, for the bible clearly depicts a morally corrupt god.

God can judge, yes. Unless you're citing a non Christian god that isn't all knowing and fully just. So he can kill without it ever being murder. Again your perverse understanding can be dismissed as biographical, because it bears no resemblance to the subject.

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(June 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: the bible clearly depicts a morally corrupt god.

You have to read it to mean the opposite of what it actually says to state that.

(June 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God can judge, yes. Unless you're citing a non Christian god that isn't all knowing and fully just. So he can kill without it ever being murder. Again your perverse understanding can be dismissed as biographical, because it bears no resemblance to the subject.

He sure did judge a lot of babies. What did they do, spit up on their mommies? Whatever it was demanded the "perfect justice" of the death penalty.

(June 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You have to read it to mean the opposite of what it actually says to state that.

I do not wear rose colored glasses while reading it as the theists do.

(June 14, 2013 at 5:26 pm)Rahul Wrote: He sure did judge a lot of babies. What did they do, spit up on their mommies? Whatever it was demanded the "perfect justice" of the death penalty.

God knows the future, so he knew those lives and could judge fairly at what point justice needed to be served.
How do you judge this to be unjust? On what grounds?