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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 13, 2013 at 11:04 am
Quote:Biblically, everyone is damned. This is an act of justice, which is getting what you deserve. Salvation is not an act of justice, it is an act of mercy and grace. Mercy and grace are undeserved, and God can deal them out as he likes. Like many critics, you incorrectly conflate justice and mercy.
To be born into a criminal sentence is justice? To inherit a criminal sentence for the crime of a man who (never) lived thousands of years ago is justice?
You can call God's salvation mercy, because choosing not to punish someone when you have the power to do so is merciful, but let's not misuse the word 'grace'. Graceful forgiveness would only be possible under a just legislator and just laws. We may argue on what makes a law just, but I imagine you live either in the same country I do or one with a similar legal structure, and you would probably not wish to submit to the legal system based upon despotic fiat. I, personally, would not make an exception for any despot, including your god. I recognize as valid no legal system imposed upon me by a legislator who considers himself above his own laws.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 13, 2013 at 11:13 am
(June 13, 2013 at 11:04 am)Ryantology Wrote: To be born into a criminal sentence is justice? To inherit a criminal sentence for the crime of a man who (never) lived thousands of years ago is justice? We're sentenced for our own crimes. Regarding those who die as children, an age of accountability doctrine can be derived from Scripture.
Quote:You can call God's salvation mercy, because choosing not to punish someone when you have the power to do so is merciful, but let's not misuse the word 'grace'. Graceful forgiveness would only be possible under a just legislator and just laws. We may argue on what makes a law just, but I imagine you live either in the same country I do or one with a similar legal structure, and you would probably not wish to submit to the legal system based upon despotic fiat.
From another human, I agree, but this isn't coming from another human.
Quote:I, personally, would not make an exception for any despot, including your god. I recognize as valid no legal system imposed upon me by a legislator who considers himself above his own laws.
I, personally, believe a creator has the right to do with his creation as he wishes. We've discussed mankind's treatment of other species (which we didn't even create) and you haven't gotten around that point yet.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 10:18 am
(This post was last modified: June 14, 2013 at 11:58 am by DeistPaladin.)
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 10:27 am
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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Re: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 5:13 pm
(This post was last modified: June 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm by fr0d0.)
Theistic morality is secular morality+. It isn't separate. Theistic morality includes a morally perfect god. What you see in acknowledgement of that in the first commandments. You seem to have your own perverse view of God. To understand theistic morality, you're going to have to look at it impartially. None of us, theist or atheist has a magic pass. All we have is our intentions and our Acton's. Just because one person has a better plan, doesn't mean that person wins the game.
Morality based upon no justice cannot ever compete with morality based upon perfect justice. That's the difference between secular and theistic morality. Morality with God wins hands down.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm
(June 14, 2013 at 5:13 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Theistic morality includes a morally perfect god.
That would be false, for the bible clearly depicts a morally corrupt god.
"What a little moonlight can do." ~ Billie Holiday
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm
(This post was last modified: June 14, 2013 at 5:26 pm by fr0d0.)
God can judge, yes. Unless you're citing a non Christian god that isn't all knowing and fully just. So he can kill without it ever being murder. Again your perverse understanding can be dismissed as biographical, because it bears no resemblance to the subject.
(June 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: the bible clearly depicts a morally corrupt god.
You have to read it to mean the opposite of what it actually says to state that.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 5:26 pm
(June 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: God can judge, yes. Unless you're citing a non Christian god that isn't all knowing and fully just. So he can kill without it ever being murder. Again your perverse understanding can be dismissed as biographical, because it bears no resemblance to the subject.
He sure did judge a lot of babies. What did they do, spit up on their mommies? Whatever it was demanded the "perfect justice" of the death penalty.
Everything I needed to know about life I learned on Dagobah.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 5:32 pm
(June 14, 2013 at 5:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You have to read it to mean the opposite of what it actually says to state that.
I do not wear rose colored glasses while reading it as the theists do.
"What a little moonlight can do." ~ Billie Holiday
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 14, 2013 at 5:34 pm
(June 14, 2013 at 5:26 pm)Rahul Wrote: He sure did judge a lot of babies. What did they do, spit up on their mommies? Whatever it was demanded the "perfect justice" of the death penalty.
God knows the future, so he knew those lives and could judge fairly at what point justice needed to be served.
How do you judge this to be unjust? On what grounds?
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