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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 7:17 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 7:19 pm by orogenicman.)
(June 19, 2013 at 4:12 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 19, 2013 at 3:01 pm)Zarith Wrote: I think if any of this were true we'd be living in a very different world.
Without freedom there is no love
Are you suggesting that the Jews who were forced to live in death camps during WW2 didn't have love for one another? You probably should think before you post. I know you probably find that a hard thing to do, but do try.
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 9:40 pm
(June 19, 2013 at 7:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 19, 2013 at 5:43 pm)Zarith Wrote: Heard it all before, still as nonsensical as ever. See: natural evil.
Natural evil disproves that without freedom there is no love? Please explain. Are you prepared to claim that the freedom to be killed by an infectious disease, or perhaps buried in red-hot ash by a volcanic eruption, is a prerequisite for love?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 2:21 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2013 at 2:22 am by fr0d0.)
(June 19, 2013 at 7:17 pm)orogenicman Wrote: (June 19, 2013 at 4:12 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Without freedom there is no love
Are you suggesting that the Jews who were forced to live in death camps during WW2 didn't have love for one another? You probably should think before you post. I know you probably find that a hard thing to do, but do try.
The point is over there, in another country. 
(June 19, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Zarith Wrote: (June 19, 2013 at 7:10 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Natural evil disproves that without freedom there is no love? Please explain. Are you prepared to claim that the freedom to be killed by an infectious disease, or perhaps buried in red-hot ash by a volcanic eruption, is a prerequisite for love?
No. Are you?
*fr0d0 wonders what this has to do with anything*
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 3:40 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2013 at 3:46 am by Mystical.)
I'm wondering too. Appeal to sympathy doesn't work, like, ever.
I love my dog. Because I love her I don't give her the freedom to choose to cross the road, because I know what will happen. Even if I teach her the road is bad, and I see she decides to go anyways: I stop her. When she's sick I'm there for her and do everything in my power to make her well, even if her great great great great grandma ate a fucking apple. When she does something bad I don't lock her in the closet for an (according to you two geniuses) indefinite amount of time, either. Because I love her.
What part of hell for any amount of time is unjust don't you get? Or are you the 'hell ain't bad' sort? Forgive me if we've had this conversation on your hell stance before; i dont memorize you guys particular flavor of Christian adherence and interpretations regarding hell.
Also if I sound grouchy, I'm just tired.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
![[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]](https://66.media.tumblr.com/5fb74c6d16622fb3dbb358509c9aec03/tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif)
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm
(June 20, 2013 at 2:21 am)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 19, 2013 at 9:40 pm)Zarith Wrote: Are you prepared to claim that the freedom to be killed by an infectious disease, or perhaps buried in red-hot ash by a volcanic eruption, is a prerequisite for love?
No. Are you?
*fr0d0 wonders what this has to do with anything* Re-read what I posted, keeping in mind that the 'freedom' argument you presented is an insufficient defense because it only addresses moral evil and not natural evil.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 4:38 pm
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2013 at 4:44 pm by fr0d0.)
Nature can't be evil. Because evil applies to forces that can decide to do evil. Nature does what it does to balance nature. It can do no other. Personally I find it awe inspiring. Terrible and beautiful. Life as we know it.
Missy c... 
Thanks for what I took as support in your post. Regarding prescious pooch. If he misbehaves and you don't punish him, who's fault is it if he goes and does something worse, or comes to harm because of your negligence? Who is responsible if you don't encourage when encouragement is due? If pooch grows to show indifference, are you responsible? Are you showing love by neglecting just action?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 4:56 pm
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2013 at 4:57 pm by Mystical.)
I am going to suppose you mean if my dog bites? Id smack her on the butt and put a muzzle on her then take her for exposure therapy. I wouldn't let her keep biting innocent people or get herself put down by the pound, then punish her doggy spirit with eternal separation from me or condemn her to doggy hellfire suffering.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 4:57 pm
(June 20, 2013 at 4:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Personally I find it awe inspiring. Terrible and beautiful. Life as we know it. I agree. Much more awe-inspiring than some sort of man in the sky idea.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 5:17 pm
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2013 at 5:18 pm by fr0d0.)
(June 20, 2013 at 4:56 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: I am going to suppose you mean if my dog bites? Id smack her on the butt and put a muzzle on her then take her for exposure therapy. I wouldn't let her keep biting innocent people or get herself put down by the pound, then punish her doggy spirit with eternal separation from me or condemn her to doggy hellfire suffering.
Cool. Neither would I. We're both believers in justice then.
(June 20, 2013 at 4:57 pm)Zarith Wrote: (June 20, 2013 at 4:38 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Personally I find it awe inspiring. Terrible and beautiful. Life as we know it. I agree. Much more awe-inspiring than some sort of man in the sky idea.
Maybe so my friend, maybe so.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 20, 2013 at 5:21 pm
Maybe you missed it, Fr0d0, but I was talking about what your god does to us. Care to explain why you don't correlate the similarities of how god treats us and how even I wouldn't treat my dog in the same manner?
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
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