Bible Study: The God who Lies and Deceives

[Rhondazvous]

You ask why an atheist forum would have a bible study. First, this thread doesn’t represent this forum as a forum. It is just one thread among thousands. Second, it is to show that I don’t reject the bible without knowledge of what it is I am rejecting.

Forget Tim Leedom. The bible is the book your church doesn’t want you to read. They give you so many memory verses in Sunday school that you can go your whole life thinking you know what’s in the bible. Read on and you may find that you’ve been accepting the bible without full knowledge of what you’ve been accepting.

Part 1 of this bible study is about God the Father, and today’s installment is called The God who Lies and Deceives

“That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:” (Hebrews 6: 18)
Either this is not true, or the biblical concept of lying is on the liberal end of the spectrum. After twenty-five years of studying the bible under sincere, authoritative and passionate teachers I never once had anyone tell me about Ezekiel 14:9 .
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
Perhaps I am misinterpreting this. Perhaps “the Lord” is not actually God himself but some angel God’s using as a cat’s paw to do what he cannot do. That doesn’t have to be the case here, but it is the case elsewhere in the bible .
19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
21 “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
22 “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” (1 Kings 22:19-23)
I had to go back and read this again because it sounds like Satan talking to the demons in hell. But again, this is “the Lord” sending a spirit to entice Kind Ahab and giving it a blank check to do whatever’s necessary to accomplish the deed.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (2 Thessalonians 2:11)
So, you see, God doesn’t actually lie. He deceives and deludes people into believing lies others tell. Right. Sure. Tell me anything.
Wait. Who is “They?” they are bad people—unbelievers. God only lies to them. This is a great explanation, as long as we forget that it’s supposed to be impossible for God to lie. Okay, it’s impossible for God to lie to believers. There’s your con man—your confidence man. God takes believers into his confidence. I, the Lord, will lie to all those suckers out there in the world. But you’re smart, I like you, and I’m going to tell you the truth.
I can’t think of a Christian who would have a problem with this passage in Thessalonians. It makes them feel kinda special to know something about the creator of the universe that no one else knows. Human beings lie. We excuse God’s lying because that’s what we do. Tu quoque. Show me a man’s god and I’ll show you the man.

[Drich]

You ask why an  atheist forum would have a bible study. First, this thread doesn’t represent this forum as a forum. It is just one thread among thousands.  Second, it is to show that I don’t reject the bible without knowledge of what it is I am rejecting.  

Forget Tim Leedom. The bible is the book your church doesn’t want you to read. They give you so many memory verses in Sunday school that you can go your whole life thinking you know what’s in the bible. Read on and you may find that you’ve been accepting the bible without full knowledge of what you’ve been accepting.

Part 1 of this bible study is about God the Father, and today’s installment is called The God who Lies and Deceives

“That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong  consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:” (Hebrews 6: 18)
Either this is not true, or the biblical concept of lying is on the liberal end of the spectrum. After twenty-five years of studying the bible under sincere, authoritative and passionate teachers I never once had anyone tell me about Ezekiel 14:9 .
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
Perhaps I am misinterpreting this. Perhaps “the Lord” is not actually God himself but some angel God’s using as a cat’s paw to do what he cannot do.  That doesn’t have to be the case here, but  it is the case elsewhere in the bible .
19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.
21 “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
22 “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’
23  “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.” (1 Kings 22:19-23)
I had to go back and read this again because it sounds like Satan talking to the demons in hell. But again, this is “the Lord” sending a spirit to entice Kind Ahab and giving it a blank check to do whatever’s necessary to accomplish the deed.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (2 Thessalonians 2:11)
So, you see, God doesn’t actually lie. He deceives and deludes people into believing lies others tell. Right. Sure. Tell me anything.
Wait. Who is “They?” they are bad people—unbelievers. God only lies to them. This is a great explanation, as long as we forget that it’s supposed to be  impossible for God to lie. Okay, it’s impossible for God to lie to believers. There’s your con man—your confidence man. God takes believers into his confidence. I, the Lord, will lie to all those suckers out there in the world. But you’re smart, I like you, and I’m going to tell you the truth.
I can’t think of a Christian who would have a problem with this passage in Thessalonians.  It makes them feel kinda special to know something about the creator of the universe that no one else knows. Human beings lie. We excuse God’s lying because that’s what we do. Tu quoque. Show me a man’s god and I’ll show you the man.

Glob...

So thou knoweth what thy rejecth, huh-ith?? Let us-ith seeith. shall thee?

But lets do so in idk NOT A DEAD DIALECT!

Oh, and let's be honest (something you cherry pickers FAIL to do) by making sure we capture the contextual meaning of a verse and not just cut and paste scraps of verses together to get a new meaning.

Ready-ith?

Let's start with your mis repersentation of Hebrews 6 rather than start at 18 let look at the context sut up all the way back in verse 13:
13 God made a promise to Abraham. And there is no one greater than God, so he made the promise with an oath in his own name—an oath that he would do what he promised. 14 He said, “I will surely bless you. I will give you many descendants.”[c] 15 Abraham waited patiently for this to happen, and later he received what God promised.
16 People always use the name of someone greater than themselves to make a promise with an oath. The oath proves that what they say is true, and there is no more arguing about it. 17 God wanted to prove that his promise was true. He wanted to prove this to those who would get what he promised. He wanted them to understand clearly that his purposes never change. So God said something would happen, and he proved what he said by adding an oath. 18 These two things cannot change: God cannot lie when he says something, and he cannot lie when he makes an oath.
So these two things are a great help to us who have come to God for safety. They encourage us to hold on to the hope that is ours. 19 This hope is like an anchor for us. It is strong and sure and keeps us safe. It goes behind the curtain.[d] 20 Jesus has already entered there and opened the way for us. He has become the high priest forever, just like Melchizedek.

Do you see anything in reading a non dead dialect version that does not allow you to misrepersent the intentions of this passage that you may have over looked in the kjv?

To me you make it sound that God is honor bound by the absolute truth every time he speaks. Then have the balls to try and use heb 6:18 to lock him in...

But as you can see if you contextually look at this passage in a dialect you have mastered, all your presupposition you have created by intentionally preaching from the fog of ignorance goes away. ignorance in a dialect that is similar to how you speak but not similar enough for you to communicate all of the nuances built into the original greek.

---

So the question remains Can God lie? according to the passage in hebrews he will not lie under oath. can he lie not under oath? as you pointed out in the OT he indeed can if it suits him.

Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?

No.

Why?

creator privilege.

And no it's not a do as I say not as I do thing. Why? can you kids drink? do you let your 5 year old drive himself to the store in his car? like wise we have no idea how a lie will effect the future. God does. If and or when ever God lies it is to keep humanity on track.

Remember God is the alpha and Omega meaning beginning and end. or simplier put he is the orginator of all power and the supreme last word. he answers to no one not even to principles or standards rule or exist above Him. It is what ever he says... is the standard. otherwise he would not be God. as there would be a power or thing he would be held accountable to. meaning if a set ofrules exist Godcould not break he then could not be God as defined by the bible.

Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it? yes if he wants to no if he does not.
Can God lie cheat and steal? yes if he wants to and no if he does not.
Can God set a standard for us to follow and he himself not be bound by the same standard? Again yes if he wants to and no if he does not. in the end we know he did.

Because there is not one law God set for us that he himself did not break in the OT.

So again why is this not sin? because sin in not about right and wrong people it is about the will of God. which is why I defined sin as being anything not in the express will of God.

The smal mind may say that is cheating, but if you think about it honestly, it means God is the originator of all powers and the absolute last word in authority. meaning nother in heaven on earth or under the earth has more power to set a standard in which to judge the almighty God. Which is why "alpha and Omega" is the perfect description of God if you can wrap your head around it or not.

[Brian37]

Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".

The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".

But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?" What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?

He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.

[Smaug]

Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?

No.

Why?

creator privilege.

....

Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it? yes if he wants to no if he does not.
Can God lie cheat and steal? yes if he wants to and no if he does not.
Can God set a standard for us to follow and he himself not be bound by the same standard? Again yes if he wants to and no if he does not. in the end we know he did.

It's like hearing a politician who forgot that the microphone is still on.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I can honestly state that never, not ONCE, has God lied to me. 

Boru

[Brian37]

I can honestly state that never, not ONCE, has God lied to me. 

Boru

Me neither, but Yoda and Thor also have never lied to me either.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I can honestly state that never, not ONCE, has God lied to me. 

Boru

Me neither, but Yoda and Thor also have never lied to me either.

I've been lied to by Thor.

Boru

[Brian37]

Me neither, but Yoda and Thor also have never lied to me either.

I've been lied to by Thor.

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I've been lied to by Thor.

Boru

Stupid.

Boru

[no one]

god told me that I would get paid on Tuesday if I gave it a hamburger, I have yet to collect.