Missy C!

You're lack of comprehension doesn't equal my defeat.

"spanner in the works" is a saying that means you've thrown something into the machinery to prevent it functioning. Delivered a screw ball. etc.

You said "I'm the opposite to good?"

I asked what you meant by that, as it seemed a completely off the wall thing to say. I have no idea what you meant by it, or where it came from.

Like I said... once you've explained this I can move on to address the rest of your post re morality.

---

Of course "God is good" is a direct reply to your question! You asked how your understanding of Christianity differed from all of the Christians here on AF. That difference is: that you see God as bad.

I have no need to prove to you why God is good. All you need to understand is the Christian concept that you oppose. That was your question thoroughly answered.

(July 3, 2013 at 5:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: "spanner in the works" is a saying that means you've thrown something into the machinery to prevent it functioning. Delivered a screw ball. etc.

Most people in the US use the phrase "Throw in a monkey wrench". At least they used to. I can't remember the last time I actually heard someone say it.

Never heard the spanner saying.

I'll stick up for you, Fr0dsy. These foreigners and bits of kids with their quaint alien ways, their rockin' roll music and their makeout parties...

There is another more modern definition of the word 'spanner', one perhaps not suitable outside Area 69. Just think of a handy tool for tightening nuts with the proper rhythmic application of elbow grease.

(July 2, 2013 at 11:04 pm)catfish Wrote:

(July 2, 2013 at 8:44 pm)ronedee Wrote: "touching" question?

eh... enlightening pagans about Christianity. You won't see me elsewhere in this forum btw.

Two things....
1st, this is "atheistforums.org"
B. Let's play the True Pagan™ game, I'll go first.

Human sacrifice is a pagan practice which is not condoned in the Bible. Is a person who participates in the act or benefits from the act a pagan? I say yes...

I think you should brush-up on your "pagan history". [Human sacrifice] (aka murder) wasn't a universal trait of "country dwellers"....at least not in the true sense of the term.

Plus... your motives are as bright as day here. I don't believe any of the following definition applies to Jesus?

pa·gan
noun \ˈpā-gən\
Definition of PAGAN
1
: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2
: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3
: neo-pagan


I have an atheist coworker who says money is his god.....so, "pagan" sounds more and more like an atheist to me! Especially given the many directions he can move in the material gods of this world...and w/o a religion to hinder him!

And...if you're feeling violently pagan, and/or hungry you could ceremoniously chase a small hen around as a sacrifice? That'll also get you off the couch and exercising, instead of playing those pagan video games! win/win!

(July 3, 2013 at 7:22 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Because that's the only way God works Zen. If God is not good then creation fails. It's the only way God makes sense.

Missy C

You're the opposite of good??? What?!

I was gonna add more but I can't now with this spanner in the works

In other words you desperately need to believe god is good in order to justify your belief in god to yourself.

The more rational approach is to accept that god either probably doesn't care or doesn't exist.

And that creation is capable of looking after itself.

(July 4, 2013 at 1:07 am)ronedee Wrote:

(July 2, 2013 at 11:04 pm)catfish Wrote: Two things....
1st, this is "atheistforums.org"
B. Let's play the True Pagan™ game, I'll go first.

Human sacrifice is a pagan practice which is not condoned in the Bible. Is a person who participates in the act or benefits from the act a pagan? I say yes...

I think you should brush-up on your "pagan history". [Human sacrifice] (aka murder) wasn't a universal trait of "country dwellers"....at least not in the true sense of the term.

Plus... your motives are as bright as day here. I don't believe any of the following definition applies to Jesus?

pa·gan
noun \ˈpā-gən\
Definition of PAGAN
1
: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2
: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3
: neo-pagan


I have an atheist coworker who says money is his god.....so, "pagan" sounds more and more like an atheist to me! Especially given the many directions he can move in the material gods of this world...and w/o a religion to hinder him!

And...if you're feeling violently pagan, and/or hungry you could ceremoniously chase a small hen around as a sacrifice? That'll also get you off the couch and exercising, instead of playing those pagan video games! win/win!

Oh please. Don't assume I'm refering to "Jesus" as pagan, he was the victim, not the perpetrator...

Anyways, I'm not sure if you're aware of the origins of the Catholic church or not. You know, the church formed by those ancient Romans....
Sunday worship? Pagan sun god's day of worship....
Pray to non-gods? Yeah, praying to "mother mary" is a pagan practice...
Call no man on earth your father? Calling a priest "father" is contradictory to the words in the Bible, thus pagan.
X-mas? Easter? Halloween? All pagan...
Do you celebrate and decorate with a pagan x-mas trees and symbols?
What about Tartarus and Hades? Fucking pagan myths...

"They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

(July 4, 2013 at 6:15 am)Zen Badger Wrote: In other words you desperately need to believe god is good in order to justify your belief in god to yourself.

The more rational approach is to accept that god either probably doesn't care or doesn't exist.

And that creation is capable of looking after itself.

hmm.. no. Humans just came up with a workable model. If the model collapses then we can and do readily dismiss it. The reason that the Christian model persists it that it works.

The rational approach is to consider the problem full on without forcing an irrational conclusion.

Creation looks after itself. God does or doesn't explain that. <--- there's your rational position

(July 4, 2013 at 1:07 am)ronedee Wrote:

(July 2, 2013 at 11:04 pm)catfish Wrote: Two things....
1st, this is "atheistforums.org"
B. Let's play the True Pagan™ game, I'll go first.

Human sacrifice is a pagan practice which is not condoned in the Bible. Is a person who participates in the act or benefits from the act a pagan? I say yes...

I think you should brush-up on your "pagan history". [Human sacrifice] (aka murder) wasn't a universal trait of "country dwellers"....at least not in the true sense of the term.

Plus... your motives are as bright as day here. I don't believe any of the following definition applies to Jesus?

pa·gan
noun \ˈpā-gən\
Definition of PAGAN
1
: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2
: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3
: neo-pagan


I have an atheist coworker who says money is his god.....so, "pagan" sounds more and more like an atheist to me! Especially given the many directions he can move in the material gods of this world...and w/o a religion to hinder him!

And...if you're feeling violently pagan, and/or hungry you could ceremoniously chase a small hen around as a sacrifice? That'll also get you off the couch and exercising, instead of playing those pagan video games! win/win!

OHhhh noooooo! He doesn't even know hes a pagan?!

Fr0d0 I don't know how our conversations keep ending up back at square 1. Please lay out what you do believe god is and how the bible cannot describe his actions or intent as anything but evil. Youve conceded that I'm justified in my beliefs now explain why they don't apply to the god you follow? You is confusin me, man!

(July 4, 2013 at 2:28 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: hmm.. no. Humans just came up with a workable model. If the model collapses then we can and do readily dismiss it. The reason that the Christian model persists it that it works.

The rational approach is to consider the problem full on without forcing an irrational conclusion.

Creation looks after itself. God does or doesn't explain that. <--- there's your rational position

The problem with the model you've adopted is that it's not even a model at all. You're essentially just shouting "MAGIC!" at the very real questions of origins until people give up their illusions that you might have an actual contribution to make.

And of course, even though god doesn't answer a single question or provide any explanatory power at all, it does seem to be an answer, to the intellectually incurious. Why? Because magic works as an excuse for anything. It's just a shortcut.

Missy C

Square 1 is good! If we can agree on that we can get somewhere

"The version of God you relate is anti God. It's self contradictory/defeats itself. I think you're perfectly justified in rejecting it."

This is not me saying you get God as I and the rest of the Christians here get God. Your version is a bad guy, and I'm saying that you're justified in hating your god.

Maybe you got that already :p

I've tried to explain how we understand God to be good.
1. That was how the Jews conceptualised God. They didn't write anything contradicting that.
2. Our intellectual construct, to be coherent, has to originate in a Moral/good/loving first cause. If it didn't you could disprove that concept very simply using logic.
3. There is absolutely zero evidence in the bible of God's fallibility. People construe killing to be always evil, by forcing limited knowledge onto God. Only by redefining the nature of God could that accusation stick. And as that fails to address the subject (God), we can dismiss it.

You don't need to agree or understand any of that though for it to be true for all of the Christians here. Just like I don't have to agree with Rayaan when he says that Allah is good. Rayaan doesn't satisfy my criticisms with his explanations, but I still cannot dispute that Rayaan says this is true for Islam.

What you or I understand matters diddly squat to the fact that this is what another person understands.

---

@Esq

When have you seen me invoke a non rational explanation? I think your post is grossly disingenuous.