So just so we are straight, god is good to you and everything he does or says in the bible is good. Because you don't want or even need to know why the shepherd killed the sheep you just assume from the onset that it was for a good reason that your limited viewpoint can't or doesn't need to fathom?



I used to be like that.
The only way I was able to rationalize that mentality was giving concessions as to what hell is and how long hell is. Which I believe you and catfish have done.
So here we are.
You know I didn't open the bible after I went through my own hardships to re examine god. I went looking for answers but with my eyes opened by near death. I wanted to understand god and it was this procedure that led me to my beliefs about god. I'm ahead of you although I'm sure you'll say I'm behind you.

"You don't need to know why" is your baseless assertion to justify your own lack of understanding. This is disingenuous at best. To be accurate and without bias you must say that you simply do not know. Your own understanding is, not surprisingly, different. That is if you wished to remain on the side of truth/ logic.

Look at the 3 positions I outlined for you above and tell me how you conclude that I have no justification. I assume you just pulled the "don't need to fathom" line out of your ass.

You used to ignore reason and brush over what you really knew was god (your own inaccurate invention) being bad. Your view was contradictory to Christian faith, yet you held it as a Christian in your estimation (I'm sure many people do. In fact I know many people do misunderstand. That isn't a crime. it's just true). You're understanding was clearly contrary to your attested belief. The result, you're self abuse, was an anti Christ act.

All that said, you are obstinately ignoring the point, which is the crux of the matter here. The point is that Christians believe that God is good/ That God and good are the same thing. You don't have to understand that or agree with it. You just have to accept that this is our belief.

We believe that with thorough rational justification. That doesn't have to be your POV, so stop trying to dismiss it simply because you disagree.

---

@Esq revisited

So your response to my statement that neither of us can prove irrefutably is "you're shouting magic".

You're claiming knowledge beyond reason.

Say no more

(July 4, 2013 at 6:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: 3. There is absolutely zero evidence in the bible of God's fallibility.

Care to discuss God's remedy for leprosy?

Again Cato, we're not discussing the "how" here. We discuss that all of the time here on AF. There are many points of view, and yours differ from mine.

The point being made is that this is what Christians believe/rationalise to be true: that God and good are the same thing.

You don't agree. That's great. I acknowledge that people hold different views to my own, and do so with their own justification, even if that justification is unfathomable to me. Rayaan is a Muslim. Deist Paladin is a deist. Catfish is a non trinitarian Christian. etc.

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: Oh please. Don't assume I'm refering to "Jesus" as pagan, he was the victim, not the perpetrator...

You said, "human sacrifice". Whatever...

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: Anyways, I'm not sure if you're aware of the origins of the Catholic church or not. You know, the church formed by those ancient Romans....

Sunday worship? Pagan sun god's day of worship....

"make Holy the sabbath"... "do this in memory of me". "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: Pray to non-gods? Yeah, praying to "mother mary" is a pagan practice...

No Catholic prays "to" Mother Mary. We pray "for" her intercession. If you didn't know, Mary initiated Jesus' first miracle. So, we ask her to intercede with our intentions. Jesus from the cross: "Woman behold your son.... and to his disciple, behold your mother!" It is very clear that Mary is our spiritual Mother.

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: Call no man on earth your father? Calling a priest "father" is contradictory to the words in the Bible, thus pagan.

"father" is used out of respect...and there is a little matter of the 6th commandment?

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: X-mas? Easter? Halloween? All pagan...

Because you say so? These holidays (All Saints Nov. 1) were actually started to counteract pagan celebrations! And...I'll have to refer you to Jesus' earlier quote..."the sabbath was made for man...." We are NOT defined as Catholics by a holiday!

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: Do you celebrate and decorate with a pagan x-mas trees and symbols?

Another dumb comparison.... Do you carry pictures around of your family? Do you get haircuts, and put $500 suits on? Do you cut your lawn, and shape your bushes? Do you wash the dog? Do you celebrate birthdays and anniversaries? I mean...come-on buddy..... we don't worship a freaking Christmas tree, or any object! Don't you remember your own atheist lines? We worship what nobody can see!

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: What about Tartarus and Hades? Fucking pagan myths...

Are you writing all this crap to fill space?

(July 4, 2013 at 11:18 am)catfish Wrote: "They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

You forgot the first part of Timothy's quote, which is very pertinent to people who have turned away from the word....or think they know-it-all.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

For a pagan you have a lot of Catholic mis-information under your belt! Or, is it wishful thinking?

@ronedee

catfish isn't an atheist. he's a non trinitarian Christian. Just a heads up

(July 5, 2013 at 2:35 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @ronedee

catfish isn't an atheist. he's a non trinitarian Christian. Just a heads up

Thanks Brian! but...whoever isn't for us.... is against us!

(July 5, 2013 at 2:42 am)ronedee Wrote:

(July 5, 2013 at 2:35 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @ronedee

catfish isn't an atheist. he's a non trinitarian Christian. Just a heads up

Thanks Brian! but...whoever isn't for us.... is against us!

Wow. Pull out the pitchfork, brother Friar, there's a non catholic Christian in your midst!

Burn them! Burn them all!

Annnd now I know how the Crusades went down.

Oh and fyi ronedee, everything you said is historically Incorrect or overridden by your own bible.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:02 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @Esq revisited

So your response to my statement that neither of us can prove irrefutably is "you're shouting magic".

You're claiming knowledge beyond reason.

Say no more

Neither of us can prove the existence of a god irrefutably, however, the very question doesn't exist just as a function of the universe. My position, as always, is a neutral one; I don't know. You, however, have a claim; that there's a god, that he created everything... and that's it. That is just shouting magic at the tough questions, by definition. And your insistence that god is outside of testability means that you've accepted never knowing the hows, whys and whats, just out of hand. I am not so intellectually incurious.

Besides, we aren't on equal footing here. My position is "I dunno, let's try and find out," while yours is "it's god. There's a god. Creation is logical." Only one of us actually has a claim, and hence is professing knowledge that they can't prove.

(July 4, 2013 at 6:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Missy C

Square 1 is good! If we can agree on that we can get somewhere

"The version of God you relate is anti God. It's self contradictory/defeats itself. I think you're perfectly justified in rejecting it."

This is not me saying you get God as I and the rest of the Christians here get God. Your version is a bad guy, and I'm saying that you're justified in hating your god.

Maybe you got that already :p

I've tried to explain how we understand God to be good.
1. That was how the Jews conceptualised God. They didn't write anything contradicting that.
2. Our intellectual construct, to be coherent, has to originate in a Moral/good/loving first cause. If it didn't you could disprove that concept very simply using logic.
3. There is absolutely zero evidence in the bible of God's fallibility. People construe killing to be always evil, by forcing limited knowledge onto God. Only by redefining the nature of God could that accusation stick. And as that fails to address the subject (God), we can dismiss it.

You don't need to agree or understand any of that though for it to be true for all of the Christians here. Just like I don't have to agree with Rayaan when he says that Allah is good. Rayaan doesn't satisfy my criticisms with his explanations, but I still cannot dispute that Rayaan says this is true for Islam.

What you or I understand matters diddly squat to the fact that this is what another person understands.

Okay fr0ds. I still dont get why to you god is good. We've only established (in your eyes) that I am justified in believing god is bad based on the god I know from the bible that is apparently the wrong interpretation. How the jews couldn't have written anything that didn't conceptualize god is good but ended up writing the whole old testament, confounds me. You confound me. But hey if you want to leave it at this, that's fine. God is good to you. Fine. I have no qualms whatsoever with you fr0d0, believe what you want. I just don't understand-- which is what I thought we were trying to rectify. Yes the unfathomable part I may have pulled out of my ass so to speak but that's in essence what is being said, I thought. I thought you said that god is good because you look at his actions as being good even though you will never know why just that you trust god and his actions and intentions are good. Thats what I got from our convo, anyways. Correct me if i'm wrong if you feel like it. Or don't, I'm not sure if we will ever come to an understanding because you are incorrect in your ascertainment of my Christian background. I'm understandably frustrated that I will never live up to being a real Christian in your eyes. Even though I was. Hell, even Ronedee is: Pagan prayers and all; Because of Christ and the acceptance of his atonement for sin. I'm pretty sure Christians even claimed the Mormons last election, too.