(June 14, 2013 at 11:00 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(June 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm)Zarith Wrote: Common arguments for the existence of God (such as the ontological argument, the teleological argument, first cause, cosmology, etc), only get you as far as an abstract notion of some sort of god -- the kind that philosophers talk about (if you accept the arguments, that is).

If you believe that the God of the Bible really exists and has the properties ascribed to him by this book, then other means are required to justify belief in this specific God. Typically this comes down to either scriptural authority, or divine revelation, or some combination of the two (for example, belief in the truth of the message of the biblical prophets is belief in both of these things). Am I omitting anything here? Note that I am including 'personal experience with God' under the umbrella of revelation, as God revealing himself to you.

But if you are willing to accept revelation / scripture as vehicles for determining truth from falsehood, then what is the point in attempting to construct a logical argument for the existence of God in the abstract? You already have what you consider proof of his existence, and a logical argument won't prove that your particular God exists. If you are trying to convince someone, they will still have to accept scriptural authority or divine revelation, will they not?

If belief in revelation / scripture is both necessary and sufficient, and logic alone is insufficient -- why bother?

Who's trying to prove God exist, I'm not and I do not believe I've seen any Christian here try it, most of us believe that it is God's work to prove He is real. God asks us to be a witness for Him and then He will draw people to Himself and let them decide to believe or not. Even the scriptures do not try to prove God's existence.

Oh my brain just turned rotten after reading this thanks now we are on the sam level

(July 5, 2013 at 4:51 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Wow. Pull out the pitchfork, brother Friar, there's a non catholic Christian in your midst!

Burn them! Burn them all!

Annnd now I know how the Crusades went down.

Oh and fyi ronedee, everything you said is historically Incorrect or overridden by your own bible.

Is there anyone home?! Or are you always on vacation?

And you wonder why no one wants a conversation with you.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:42 am)ronedee Wrote:

(July 5, 2013 at 2:35 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @ronedee

catfish isn't an atheist. he's a non trinitarian Christian. Just a heads up

Thanks Brian! but...whoever isn't for us.... is against us!

Brian?

Indeed!

---

(July 5, 2013 at 5:10 am)Esquilax Wrote: Only one of us actually has a claim, and hence is professing knowledge that they can't prove.

But what is my claim? A: That there cannot be proof. That neither of us can know (see above).

So where does that leave your opposition? On what subject are you objecting? Certainly not what you're basing your objection on.

---

(July 5, 2013 at 5:11 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Okay fr0ds. I still dont get why to you god is good. We've only established (in your eyes) that I am justified in believing god is bad based on the god I know from the bible that is apparently the wrong interpretation.

In your eyes and I would agree. You can only operate on what you understand. It's the wrong interpretation if you're a Christian or Jew. To a lot of atheists your view is spot on.
To me those justifications are laughable. I started out holding the same opinions and thoroughly addressed them. I can't see how it aids atheism.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:42 am)ronedee Wrote: but...whoever isn't for us.... is against us!

Thank you for succinctly demonstrating what I loath most about religion in an easily digestible format.

(July 5, 2013 at 1:18 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(July 5, 2013 at 2:42 am)ronedee Wrote: but...whoever isn't for us.... is against us!

Thank you for succinctly demonstrating what I loath most about religion in an easily digestible format.

LOL! And you need that to loath? And you were doing so well on your own!

Yet another reason NOT to go to church. I hope you don't need an alka seltzer later!

(July 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm)ronedee Wrote: LOL! And you need that to loath? And you were doing so well on your own!

No, I didn't need that, silly. There is much in your religion to loath, which is why I through in the word "most" there.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm)ronedee Wrote: Yet another reason NOT to go to church.

As if I needed another.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm)ronedee Wrote: I hope you don't need an alka seltzer later!

So, what you're telling me is...Jesus cures indigestion?

(July 5, 2013 at 2:28 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(July 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm)ronedee Wrote: LOL! And you need that to loath? And you were doing so well on your own!

No, I didn't need that, silly. There is much in your religion to loath, which is why I through in the word "most" there.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm)ronedee Wrote: Yet another reason NOT to go to church.

As if I needed another.

(July 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm)ronedee Wrote: I hope you don't need an alka seltzer later!

So, what you're telling me is...Jesus cures indigestion?

ooooh rikki you so funny! you so funny!

(July 5, 2013 at 5:11 am)missluckie26 Wrote: God is good to you. Fine. I have no qualms whatsoever with you fr0d0, believe what you want. I just don't understand-- which is what I thought we were trying to rectify. Yes the unfathomable part I may have pulled out of my ass so to speak but that's in essence what is being said, I thought. I thought you said that god is good because you look at his actions as being good even though you will never know why just that you trust god and his actions and intentions are good. Thats what I got from our convo, anyways. Correct me if i'm wrong if you feel like it. Or don't, I'm not sure if we will ever come to an understanding because you are incorrect in your ascertainment of my Christian background. I'm understandably frustrated that I will never live up to being a real Christian in your eyes. Even though I was. Hell, even Ronedee is: Pagan prayers and all; Because of Christ and the acceptance of his atonement for sin. I'm pretty sure Christians even claimed the Mormons last election, too.

Kudos to you for trying to understand Missy.

You have the information but you don't trust it. You'd have to trust it and then act upon it to have faith, so you're a long way from understanding.

I'm sorry you feel that I discount your whole experience. I don't. When I first became a believer, it was the result of a lot of hard study. Still faith was hard. I then became a keen believer, a bit over confident I would say. I still didn't understand a lot of huge stuff, like how Christ was God at the same time. I got some crappy answers that didn't help. Point being, no one is perfect. The terrible stuff you describe and the justification for it is all misdirected belief. The best people are susceptible to it. Somehow an aim to be so right turns out to produce something so wrong.

Love underpins my view of the world. Neutrality underpins yours.

In my view, how do you think you're doing? On a scale of fulfilled love where would you put yourself? I'm talking every aspect of life now.

When you were studying, did you happen to ponder this little guy?



If so, for how long?

No idea lol. What is it? Lemme read the whole horror story