I suspect it is possible to be a theist without believing in the power of babble, kissing snakes or having cathartic orgasms (thank you, Jesus!). Still these are pretty funny. If you were some kind of esoteric Christian who read the bible allegorically I suppose all you could do is grin and bear it. I mean, who doesn't enjoy clowns?

Actually this is very common in many religions. It has been most common historically in shamanistic religions, tribal religions, and other small scale religious communities. It is most common in religions and spiritual practices which believe in spirit beings of the spiritual dimension actively involved in the affairs of the material dimension. Humans are seen as the beings who can live in both worlds. In purely natural terms, it is created by the convergence of a number of psychological, physical, emotional, and social factors which can bring on both individual and communal states of altered consciousness. You may be familiar with the sensory deprivation studies which will create the same sorts of alternative reality experiences. The same effects can be brought about with the right combination of shared belief, extreme exertion, highly emotionally sensitive personalities, immersive sensory atmosphere (intense rhythmic chanting), and a culturally defined set of expectations. However why they do it is the same reason Native American nations have engaged in the Sun Dance or the Spirit Dance or the Vision Quest; Why Aboriginal Australian peoples go ton the Walk About; why the Siberan and South American and Indonesian shamanistic cultures hold tightly to their spiritual heritage even in modern times when they are supposedly Christians and Muslims. The reason why they all do it is that it can, when done right, bring about the most incredibly overwhelming sense of utter and absolute wellbeing, of complete empowerment, of undifferentiated unity with all beings and all states of being. They do it because the experience is beyond any other experience. And if they haven't had the actual experience yet. If their community teaches that the experience is possible, they'll keep doing it the rest of their lives.

(July 6, 2013 at 2:29 pm)wandering soul Wrote: Actually this is very common in many religions. It has been most common historically in shamanistic religions, tribal religions, and other small scale religious communities. It is most common in religions and spiritual practices which believe in spirit beings of the spiritual dimension actively involved in the affairs of the material dimension. Humans are seen as the beings who can live in both worlds. In purely natural terms, it is created by the convergence of a number of psychological, physical, emotional, and social factors which can bring on both individual and communal states of altered consciousness. You may be familiar with the sensory deprivation studies which will create the same sorts of alternative reality experiences. The same effects can be brought about with the right combination of shared belief, extreme exertion, highly emotionally sensitive personalities, immersive sensory atmosphere (intense rhythmic chanting), and a culturally defined set of expectations. However why they do it is the same reason Native American nations have engaged in the Sun Dance or the Spirit Dance or the Vision Quest; Why Aboriginal Australian peoples go ton the Walk About; why the Siberan and South American and Indonesian shamanistic cultures hold tightly to their spiritual heritage even in modern times when they are supposedly Christians and Muslims. The reason why they all do it is that it can, when done right, bring about the most incredibly overwhelming sense of utter and absolute wellbeing, of complete empowerment, of undifferentiated unity with all beings and all states of being. They do it because the experience is beyond any other experience. And if they haven't had the actual experience yet. If their community teaches that the experience is possible, they'll keep doing it the rest of their lives.

Point taken. I'm a little familiar with some shamanic rituals. Don't you think there is an important difference though between a vision quest or walkabout, and the simple desire to experience altered states? Hell, perhaps that is still better than nothing but I don't see how the experiences we see in those videos are transformative for the individuals. It merely keeps them awed and subservient. To my mind, that makes it a profane rather than sacred use of altered states. I find organized religions of all stripes basically cut the individual out of direct personal experience of the sacred, redirecting their interest to keep them under control of the religious institution.

It's also worth noting that having such experiences isn't exclusive to those who believe the religious truths already. The behaviors, activities, and environment will induce the same altered state in a non-believer as a believer, as it is the behaviors doing it, causing changes in the body and the brain, not something metaphysical or supernatural. And because these altered states can readily lend themselves to religious explanations, and many of them include heightened sensitivity to suggestion, they are very effective means of turning non-believers into believers, and strengthening the conviction of someone who already believes (perhaps resulting in them being more religiously active).

I suppose it's possible to look at it as a form of cultural evolution in that, a church with these elements in their religious repertoire is going to succeed better than one without. So, perhaps, it's natural for such naturally mind altering methods and behaviors to come to predominate any religious community.

And regular churches aren't immune to this. There is plenty of mind altering stuff going on at a traditional church. Take a Catholic mass for example. Prior to the reformation, people would listen to the mass in Latin, yet only the priests understood the Latin. So what is the point in speaking to an audience of people in a language they don't understand? Any non-believer who has attended such a mass can attest that one doesn't have to understand the words for the experience to be powerful; it's perhaps more powerful because you don't understand the words.

I attended a Unitarian Universalist church for a while, and while different UU churches vary, most such churches have the religiously Christian element drained out of their worship/practice, to the point that it can be an almost purely secular experience, cohering around shared values like "growth" and "independent thinking" rather than beliefs. The church I attended is considered one of the most atheist of the UU churches in my city. Yet, even there, one finds that they have hymnals, and during church services they sing the lyrics to these hymnals to traditional musical accompaniment. Beyond it being somewhat creepy, one has to ask why a communal meeting which has become essentially completely secular has retained such a ritualistic element so closely associated with religious belief. I think the foregoing explains why.

(One might also ask why church services historically were held early in the day rather than later. I don't know if there is a historical reason, but it seems all too possible there is a psychological one related to the way the mind's behavior is different at different times during the day.)

Note also that the contemporary phenomenon of mega churches are essentially finely tuned, on-demand revivals, recreating many of the psychological elements of the old time religious revivals on a weekly basis.

(July 6, 2013 at 10:50 am)taylor93112 Wrote: Also, is there any other religion besides Christianity where things like this happen?

I'll admit I haven't studied all religions extensively, but I don't think so. I've never run across a group of Hindu's doing that. Or Buddhists.

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(July 6, 2013 at 3:09 pm)apophenia Wrote: And regular churches aren't immune to this. There is plenty of mind altering stuff going on at a traditional church. Take a Catholic mass for example. Prior to the reformation, people would listen to the mass in Latin, yet only the priests understood the Latin. So what is the point in speaking to an audience of people in a language they don't understand? Any non-believer who has attended such a mass can attest that one doesn't have to understand the words for the experience to be powerful; it's perhaps more powerful because you don't understand the words.

Actually, my Italian relatives did understand enough of Latin to follow what the Priests were saying.

I've heard the argument used a lot, Spanish, Italian, I think even French are Latin based languages. Also Latin was taught in most schools -- my mom learned Latin in grammar school. (in some areas of the US, in mostly private schools it's still taught today -- tho I'll admit I dont know why.

Actually the devotional sect of Hinduism, the Bhakti movement, has been engaging in this very type of communal ecstatic activity since the late middle ages. The Sufi mystical branch of Islam also has the practice of Dhikr which is similar. Tibetan and other Mahayana Buddhist sects create elaborate mandalas to use along with chanting and other sound sensory overload to induce altered states of consciousness and experience what they term the "Buddha Lands."

I uhh I always got embarrassed for the pastor speaking tongues or the lady on the side in a bellydance skirt singing tongues while she clapped a tambourine and hopped around. I tried to no avail myself, it was embarrassing! I asked why I couldn't and the pastorial staff member told me I wasn't heavy enough in the spirit of god. Which didn't make sense to me because I'd given god my all. One day I got the gall to go up front while they spoke in tongues and the pastor whacked people upside the forehead and fall backwards into the arms of catchers. I wanted the god experience . I was so afraid of what would happen if I was the Only person up there that didn't ..um.. do what they did. That experience? Didn't get it, I just stood there like I was afraid of, wondering what I should be feeling and whether I should fake it.

I squirm in my seat when I see people acting like this. But, you know, it's the same when a Hypnotist puts on a show. If he puts you under his spell and tells you to jump like a monkey, chances are, you are going to do just that.

(July 6, 2013 at 10:38 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: I always got embarrassed for the pastor speaking tongues or the lady on the side in a bellydance skirt singing tongues while she clapped a tambourine and hopped around. I tried to no avail myself, it was embarrassing!

Hey Missluckie the reason we have so many different ways of being spiritual/ non-spiritual, religions/ non-religious, rational / non-rational, etc. etc. is that there are so many different ways of being human. The diversity of our humanity is what makes it creative and wonderful and interesting to be human.

The joke of life is that often some of us are born into families, cultures, social communities that do NOT work for our personal psyche, temperament, mind, emotions, needs, whatever. The good part is that we can go off and find the kind of people we do fit with and make our own family and community with them.

Then we can see those other people as just another curiosity.