(May 3, 2012 at 4:46 pm)Bgood Wrote: Well, I would recommend that you watch more than just one video on 911 truth! Some documentaries present the evidence much clearer and concise than others. There are literally hundreds of truther videos available so...you have to use your own wise judgement in what is good info and what is bad info. For example, some Conspiracy theories will spiral off into UFO sightings or mention holographic planes which are distractions and B.S. I'd watch the ones with alot of views and thumbs up. Watch the ones which are made by Micahael Moore, Loose Change and Zeitgeist part 2 / 911

Ok, obviously you paid as much attention to the information I provided re: Zeitgeist as you have credibility. Hmm... who is the closed-minded among us again..?

Regardless, I was wondering when Loose Change was going to come up. Honestly; I was waiting to see who would be the first to raise this particularly ugly spectre. And you went there!

Here's some more information, this time focussing on Loose Stools Change specifically. If you are as open to the evidence as you think you are, take the challenge.

Firstly, here's what the "Internet Detectives" have to say:

Quote:Loose Change is a video that examines the attacks of September 11, written and narrated by Dylan Avery. Originally fiction, Avery decided to present it as a documentary after further research. The video received attention on the internet, and a second edition was produced which contained additional information but omitted some information from the first video. A recut of the second edition was later produced, with minor changes and corrections.

There's a whole wealth of background, contextual and corrected Loose Brain Change information there.

Then there's Screw Loose Change, the blogspot dedicated to unmasking the lies and distortions in Avery's opus. Check out the links in their "Permanent Top Post".

Or if you want something visual, that's not too abysmal, you should take in the accompanying annotated version of the Loose Change video, which does for Avery's 'documentary' what the popular Expelled lie-correcting subtitles did for Ben Stein:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...3129565561

I wonder if anyone here, naming no names, would Bgood enough to actually examine any of this stuff?

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: I don't know for sure if the 9/11 attacks were staged by the American government itself, but in my opinion, I think that there's a higher probability that that is the case.

Rayaan, even when I don't agree with you, I have to acknowledge your class and the reservation you show when making claims.

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Just by calling it a "conspiracy" or those who believe in it "9/11 truthers" doesn't make the arguments less valid.

I think a claim of conspiracy in itself can constitute a valid critique of a theory if what is being claimed is a 'big C' Conspiracy, the kind that requires hundreds of people to keep a truly huge secret, like having captured an alien spacecraft.

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: My contention is not that the towers couldn't have burned and collapse to the floor after getting hit by the planes, but there are lots of coincidences behind the event which occurred before and after the event, that indicate that the whole thing was more likely to be organized by the CIA and other secret networks instead of some terrorists. They did it so cleverly that most people wouldn't suspect them for doing such a thing. And I think they are very good at that.

I don't think they're really good at it. The year I was assigned to America's most secret agency (not the CIA), a book came out telling all about it. I can neither confirm nor deny how accurate that book was, or tell you the name, but I recommend it. More sophisticated spy agencies, like MI6 and Mossad, regard the CIA as bumblers, and in comparison I have to agree.

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: I think that the 9/11 was created by the government so that it could use that as a reason to go war with Afghanistan and Iraq and get more oil, resources, or simply to achieve whatever their objectives were at the time.

If that's the case, shouldn't they have made the hijackers Afghanis and Iraqis?

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: If you look at history, there are many examples of false-flag terror attacks which prove that the government of a country has secretly caused harm to their own people and then they falsely blamed it on another country, so that they can justify invasion of that country.

This is true. In the past, governments have demonstrated that they are willing to carry out false flag attacks, and that they are not very good at covering it up when this has been done. That's why we know about them.

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: To me, all of this proves how good the government is at keeping secrets. People at that time didn't even believe that those events were perpetrated by their own government.

It always comes out. Little secrets are forgotten more than successfully covered up, big ones are like bombs with lit fuses, waiting to go off.

(May 3, 2012 at 2:10 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Then again, I know that it's possible that I'm deceived myself just by being a Muslim (which is what you're probably thinking right now).
Well, I just wanted to put my thoughts on this topic since you guys were talking about this. Tell me what you think.

That standard of humility in reasoning is something to which I aspire.

i guess if i'm going to buy into some of this stuff, i may as well not bullshit myself eh?

That's fucking awesome, jackman. Thumbs up.

Hahahaa jackman that is brilliant!

"Followers of the Way [of Chán], if you want to get the kind of understanding that accords with the Dharma, never be misled by others. Whether you're facing inward or facing outward, whatever you meet up with, just kill it! If you meet a buddha, kill the buddha. If you meet a patriarch, kill the patriarch. If you meet an arhat, kill the arhat. If you meet your parents, kill your parents. If you meet your kinfolk, kill your kinfolk."

"Those who have fulfilled the ten stages of bodhisattva practice are no better than hired field hands; those who have attained the enlightenment of the fifty-first and fifty-second stages are prisoners shackled and bound; arhats and pratyekabuddhas are so much filth in the latrine; bodhi and nirvana are hitching posts for donkeys."

— Linji Yixuan, Chan master (Chinese precursor to Zen Buddhism), ca. 9th century CE

"The Master [Linji] saw a monk coming and held his fly whisk straight up. The monk made a low bow, whereupon the Master struck him a blow. The Master saw another monk coming and again held his fly whisk straight up. The monk paid no attention, whereupon the Master struck him a blow as well."

kick 'em while they're up!
kick 'em while they're down.
kick 'em while they're up!
kick 'em while they're down.

This thread I want reopened for the fact I've been seeking online for the longest for likeminded people. My beef is that you would think for yourself as far as being a atheist/xtian, but why not accept anarchism also. Most atheist seem to me to worship the government as if they need something to obey. Government to me are the gods who will inflict "real" life damnation unto its fellow slaves and followers. It sickens me to my stomach when some have it but just don't got it yet! As for any theory, it should be just. All things are made up as some type of theory before its known to be a fact. As for the dislikes of the word 'conspiracy', its 2 or more in private planning a crime/event! Wake thee f*ck up already. We are the new slaves we all are! Always have been. I'm an anarchist/atheist. "Hit me"!!!

(May 1, 2012 at 3:38 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(May 1, 2012 at 3:29 pm)jackman Wrote: i'm also just not sold on the fact that 911 played out the way we're told it was. of that story as told thru the news, there is a valid debunking as there is also a valid debunking of the debunking, just shows in my head that enough questions aren't answered about it. whether you like steven jones' argument (of nanothermite) or bazant's (couldn't have been thermite) - at least there are 2 real studies to read with real info. there is an incredible amount of holes in the story that i can't ignore.

If you say the collapse of the WTC twin towers was a controlled demolition I'm putting you on ignore.

Anytime a building is either demolished or collapses, there will be nanothermite in the air. The 9/11 conspiracy theories are dumb. The people who tell these conspiracy theories know very well that they are lies. They just know that people will give them money and attention if they publish them. P.T. Barnum once said: There's a sucker born every minute.

(July 15, 2013 at 7:49 pm)deetheeatheist Wrote: This thread I want reopened for the fact I've been seeking online for the longest for likeminded people. My beef is that you would think for yourself as far as being a atheist/xtian, but why not accept anarchism also. Most atheist seem to me to worship the government as if they need something to obey. Government to me are the gods who will inflict "real" life damnation unto its fellow slaves and followers. It sickens me to my stomach when some have it but just don't got it yet!

What makes you think that we haven't considered anarchism and then rejected it? Is it a philosophy so compelling that anyone you considers it immediately accepts it as true?

We don't worship the government, we simply understand its necessity. We know that without a lot of checks against its powers, it can go bad very fast. Which is why we also try to make sure that unlike gods, they can't inflict real life damnation on whim or arbitrary law. Just because we realize that without the government the society would devolve into gang wars and mob rule - as it does in places without government - doesn't mean we consider it indispensable.

(July 15, 2013 at 7:49 pm)deetheeatheist Wrote: My beef is that you would think for yourself as far as being a atheist/xtian, but why not accept anarchism also.

Me personally? I like to live in a society where I feel that my freedoms are protected.

(July 15, 2013 at 7:49 pm)deetheeatheist Wrote: Government to me are the gods who will inflict "real" life damnation unto its fellow slaves and followers. It sickens me to my stomach when some have it but just don't got it yet!

Do you live under the rule of a government? Why? If this sickens you so much, then stop doing so and go live out in the woods under your own laws.

You see, while religion isn't necessary for governing ourselves, government is. And if the government is a bad one, then there's always reform.