Yes, it all seems rather pointless to bother being nice if that's the case, don't you think?

You could look at it that way. Here is a good scripture to spport ALL men being saved. I post it as I know you are reading the Bible Luke:

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Just as ALL in the first part means everyone without exception dies, so too ALL will be made alive. What an amazing possibility.

Errr, doesn't that completely contradict the parts in the bible when it says atheists shall go to hell? Or do you already know that?

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(December 1, 2008 at 11:28 pm)Daystar Wrote: I think that we were made to be perfect and life forever and that is a part of us. Since the cells in the body just keep rejuvenating science can't really explain why we die.

There are many reasons, as you know, HOW we die. But WHY we die? Why should there be a reason for it? We're imperfect natural beings. We are 'higher apes'. Just as the universe is natural and there is no known ultimate 'purpose', 'meaning' or 'reason' to it. And no reason to think there is one at all. Why is there a reason to think that we die for a reason? Why do we die? Because its natural. We are imperfect. There is no 'purpose' to it as far as we know.
HOW we die on the other hand...as you know, there are many ways.
Old age, disease, starvation, poison, nasty accidents, being killed by something living (including another human). The list goes on and on as you know.
Also there's no reason to ask "Why do these things kill us?" because the answer is the same. There is no reason or purpose to it that we need to know. There is no evidence of one. No reason to think there is one. Why do these things kill us? Once again, no reason. Its more of a HOW. How do they kill us? Because we're imperfect beings! We're natural we're not gods or anything supernatural or 'god-made'. We're animals. We're merely 'higher-apes'.
The only reason we think we have special value is because we give ourselves it. WE say we're special.
Indeed we are evidently the most intelligent species on OUR planet at least. But thats not to say we're anything 'special' and certainly nothing made in "God's image" or divine. That is truly arrogance. Total conceit.
Daystar, it seems to me that, you - like many other theists - are confusing "why?" and "how?" with each other. They are - of course - different questions.
Unless you of course, think that we really do need a reason WHY we die. As in what is the purpose. Like "what is the purpose of the universe?". There is no reason to believe we DO need one. Why does the universe need a purpose? Why does there have to be a purpose to death? Because us - as evolved imperfect beings - say so? Thats no reason for it to need a purpose. As far as we know it doesn't have or need one. You can investigate it and contemplate it as much as you know but no one has EVER come up with a satisfactory objective answer to an ultimate purpose. Sure you can have subjective purposes. Your own purposes. But when you talk about "God's purpose", the "purpose of the universe" or "the purpose of life" itself. Or the "purpose of death". As far as we know thats completely nonsensical. There's no evidence of any purpose in these things. No reason to believe otherwise untill the evidence comes in.
You can look for reasons, you can search for evidence. But until actually IS any. There isn't one. And the universe actually is just completely natural. Its not designed. Life is not designed.
And I believe everything points to this being the case. And I believe this will always be the case. I think I can be as certain about that, as I can about gravity. About the fact that gravity exists. About the fact that if I jump off a roof I will fall. I won't stay airborn.
There is no "ultimate purpose" to death because there is no reason to think that there is purpose to "life" or the universe itself. Until any real evidence to the contrary comes in. And I don't believe it ever will. It goes completely against all the natural laws of the unviverse that we know of. It would indeed be a miracle. A change in the natural order. It would go against [i]everything[i/] we really do know. Against all science. It would be supernatural. To go against the natural order breaks every rule in the book. There are no changes in the natural order. No miracles and nothing supernatural. Just as there IS indeed a gravity. The two would completely and utterly contradict each other. It would be impossible.
But we do know that gravity actually exists, so nothing supernatural can come in and contradict it because gravity and every other natural law(s) would cease to be or make any sense. It just doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as the supernatural by very definition. Everything that we know DOES exist is natural. The supernatural contradicts the natural just as miracles contradict gravity. There is no place for the supernatural and miracles in reality.

EvidenceVsFaith, to take your fist comment first:
'Errr, doesn't that completely contradict the parts in the bible when it says atheists shall go to hell? Or do you already know that?'

Daystar has hopefully shown that hell is not a place of consciousness, but is the common grave where eveyone goes. The same mistranslations that gave rise to the pagan belief of hell have also resulted in words in the bible being translated 'forever' when they mean for a period of time. The Greek word 'aion' mostly translated 'for ever' actually means a set period of time, so should be more correctly translated 'age'. So death, judgement, suffering, these things will only last for a set period of time. I can supply more examples (also Hebrew words) where the words have been mistranslated for anyone interested. Once this is understood, many of Christs 'threatenings' take on a whole new meaning, and in line with the God of love :

'This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.' 1 Timothy 4:9-11

YOu then go on to discuss why we die and I must admit that it is logical to assume that humans, just like all other matter here and in the universe is finite. Everything has an end: the suns, the planets etc, as well as all living beings. As I believe in the laws of physics, I can't imagine 'perfect' humans living on a finite planet with a finite sun, so to me this suggests that our mortal bodies are meant to die. I may be wrong here, but the fact it says we are to have immortal bodies and the New Heaven and New Earth will not be bound by the laws of physics (it says the sun will not light up the new Earth, but God, -it's in Revelation somewhere, I can find if anyone wants exact verse) suggests that everything up to now is temporary or for an age or ages. (It's a good job the New Earth won't be relying on our sun , as it will burn up one day).

(December 2, 2008 at 6:12 am)lukec Wrote: Yes, it all seems rather pointless to bother being nice if that's the case, don't you think?

It isn't about being nice. You are far better equipped to more fully appreciate the meaning of the Bible if you drop all of the bullshit caused by Xianity. They adopted all of these pagan fables which transmogrified the and even obscured the real meaning of the Bible and it's teachings.

To fill that void and give themselves some desirable purpose they create a sort of pseudo morality that not only demonstrates their obvious hypocrisy but also keeps them from understanding one of the most important teachings of the Bible. The meaning and importance of sin.

They will cry out at the top of their lungs that we all sin but at the same time go on and on about how morally superior they are. Its bullshit.

David was beloved of God and look how he fucked up. Look at Solomon.

The Law of Moses was meant to instruct the people regarding the meaning of sin so that they would appreciate the Messiah and see what he was all about, but religious bullshit - which people cling so blindly to, got in the way just as it does again with Xians.

They miss the meaning for the religion. The Pharisee who prayed with head held high confident in how little he sinned missed the point while the sinner so humble as not to raise his eyes to heaven got it. That is why Jesus told his followers that the sinners might enter into the kingdom of heaven (which includes earth, for the record) first.

(December 1, 2008 at 3:20 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Bozo- you said 'CR, sorry but I don't buy what you're attempting to sell. So life as we know it is not really worth it? It's all a preparation for the hereafter? Sorry, no. Anyway, I don't want an eternal life...can I opt out please? The proposition of being an immortal " child " of god is too awful to contemplate. Plus, think of the company you'd have to kep. Eternal verbals with Daystar!!! Beam me up Scottie!


I'm certainly not attempting to sell anything. You saying you don't want an eternal life reminds me of a child saying 'I never asked to be born'. If and it's probably a big 'if', I am right, then the life that awaits us would not be like anything we have experienced and I don't think 'bored' would 'exist' anymore. Imagine nothing to piss you off, make you mad or sad, but rather loving, joyful exhilirating mind blowing experiences- life wtihout pain but full of purpose that won't end. Me, you and Daystar can meet up and carry on our discussions....

CR, I can say what I like and I repeat, immortality as you envisage it holds zero attraction to me.
Does a child ask to be born? In my world it does not, so what's your point?
I must say CR, that your time spent on this forum does not appear to have altered your hope one jot about God's existence and all that flows from it.

(December 2, 2008 at 3:37 pm)bozo Wrote: CR, I can say what I like and I repeat, immortality as you envisage it holds zero attraction to me.
Does a child ask to be born? In my world it does not, so what's your point?
I must say CR, that your time spent on this forum does not appear to have altered your hope one jot about God's existence and all that flows from it.

I kind of watch CR's interaction here with the in house Atheists and at times marvel at it. I have never seen such a bold attempt to convert another to a paradigm as the Atheists desire to convert her. Even compared to Xian boards I have been on. [shudder]

I admire her willingness to explore different understandings and beliefs than hers but see the Atheist's need to convert here and elsewhere as selfish desperation. Reeks of religion though denied.

(December 2, 2008 at 3:46 pm)Daystar Wrote:

(December 2, 2008 at 3:37 pm)bozo Wrote: CR, I can say what I like and I repeat, immortality as you envisage it holds zero attraction to me.
Does a child ask to be born? In my world it does not, so what's your point?
I must say CR, that your time spent on this forum does not appear to have altered your hope one jot about God's existence and all that flows from it.

I kind of watch CR's interaction here with the in house Atheists and at times marvel at it. I have never seen such a bold attempt to convert another to a paradigm as the Atheists desire to convert her. Even compared to Xian boards I have been on. [shudder]

I admire her willingness to explore different understandings and beliefs than hers but see the Atheist's need to convert here and elsewhere as selfish desperation. Reeks of religion though denied.

Daystar, yet again you miss the point. No you don't, you well understand but you are mischievous!
I couldn't care less about converting Cox Rox. That's not my mission.
She has indeed explored some avenues but always reverts to her christian ideal. She isn't for converting, so don't worry yourself unduly.

(December 2, 2008 at 11:24 am)Daystar Wrote:

(December 2, 2008 at 6:12 am)lukec Wrote: Yes, it all seems rather pointless to bother being nice if that's the case, don't you think?

It isn't about being nice. You are far better equipped to more fully appreciate the meaning of the Bible if you drop all of the bullshit caused by Xianity. They adopted all of these pagan fables which transmogrified the and even obscured the real meaning of the Bible and it's teachings.

To fill that void and give themselves some desirable purpose they create a sort of pseudo morality that not only demonstrates their obvious hypocrisy but also keeps them from understanding one of the most important teachings of the Bible. The meaning and importance of sin.

They will cry out at the top of their lungs that we all sin but at the same time go on and on about how morally superior they are. Its bullshit.

David was beloved of God and look how he fucked up. Look at Solomon.

The Law of Moses was meant to instruct the people regarding the meaning of sin so that they would appreciate the Messiah and see what he was all about, but religious bullshit - which people cling so blindly to, got in the way just as it does again with Xians.

They miss the meaning for the religion. The Pharisee who prayed with head held high confident in how little he sinned missed the point while the sinner so humble as not to raise his eyes to heaven got it. That is why Jesus told his followers that the sinners might enter into the kingdom of heaven (which includes earth, for the record) first.

Well said....

(December 2, 2008 at 3:46 pm)Daystar Wrote: I kind of watch CR's interaction here with the in house Atheists and at times marvel at it. I have never seen such a bold attempt to convert another to a paradigm as the Atheists desire to convert her. Even compared to Xian boards I have been on. [shudder]

Oh come on.

Perhaps in Xian boards there really are not many chances for conversion for some reason... But here, for example, I try as hard with CR as I do with you, Daystar- that is, I present my point of view and any evidence I have for it. Maybe you're just jealous?