Bozo, you said:
'CR, I can say what I like and I repeat, immortality as you envisage it holds zero attraction to me.
Does a child ask to be born? In my world it does not, so what's your point?
I must say CR, that your time spent on this forum does not appear to have altered your hope one jot about God's existence and all that flows from it.'

This just goes to show how we may perceive things incorrectly. My point about eternal life, was that if such a thing actually exists, then I don't think you would feel like that, but then this is quite a non- sensical thing to be 'discussing' as you don't believe in any of this, do you? Your last comment about my time spent here is bullshit if you'll pardon my candour. I'm learning alot, and sorry if you haven't convinced me, but who says I won't 'see the light'? I've only just begun to investigate things like evolution, and many of the arguments presented here by friendlier folk than you do make me wonder more than you can imagine. I know I still 'quote' things, but by doing this you (the atheists) are able to counter debate and provide viewpoints etc that I may never have considered. My faith is very fragile and I'm only holding onto it by a thin thread. Just as I respect others beliefs, whether religious, non religious, etc you should try to exercise a bit more warmth and friendliness and maybe even make allowances for us 'virus infected' folk. After all, I've been infected for best part of 40 years.

Regardless of whether or not your opinion has changed, you are still here and you are still discussing what you're interested in. I don't think it matters what you believe as long as you keep an open mind and are willing to accept new ideas, which you certainly are.

(December 2, 2008 at 4:27 pm)CoxRox Wrote: Bozo, you said:
'CR, I can say what I like and I repeat, immortality as you envisage it holds zero attraction to me.
Does a child ask to be born? In my world it does not, so what's your point?
I must say CR, that your time spent on this forum does not appear to have altered your hope one jot about God's existence and all that flows from it.'

This just goes to show how we may perceive things incorrectly. My point about eternal life, was that if such a thing actually exists, then I don't think you would feel like that, but then this is quite a non- sensical thing to be 'discussing' as you don't believe in any of this, do you? Your last comment about my time spent here is bullshit if you'll pardon my candour. I'm learning alot, and sorry if you haven't convinced me, but who says I won't 'see the light'? I've only just begun to investigate things like evolution, and many of the arguments presented here by friendlier folk than you do make me wonder more than you can imagine. I know I still 'quote' things, but by doing this you (the atheists) are able to counter debate and provide viewpoints etc that I may never have considered. My faith is very fragile and I'm only holding onto it by a thin thread. Just as I respect others beliefs, whether religious, non religious, etc you should try to exercise a bit more warmth and friendliness and maybe even make allowances for us 'virus infected' folk. After all, I've been infected for best part of 40 years.

CR, please feel free to express yourself as you see fit. I won't be offended. I'm sorry you find me less friendly than others but that's your right too. Perhaps it's down to candour? ( your choice of word ). I am not the most patient of people so perhaps that goes some way to explaining my apparent " unfriendliness ".
As I have said to Daystar I am not out to convince/convert you..I don't seriously think you can be. That's the point.

(December 2, 2008 at 4:52 pm)lukec Wrote: Regardless of whether or not your opinion has changed, you are still here and you are still discussing what you're interested in. I don't think it matters what you believe as long as you keep an open mind and are willing to accept new ideas, which you certainly are.

Thanks Luke, you've cheered me up.

---

Bozo, let's forget about 'converting'. Everyone likes to think what they believe is 'true'. That is human nature. It's interesting and can be 'fun' and challenging, debating opposite sides, so let's remember that we can always agree to disagree.....

But lets all still try and explain whats true to us right? I'm not a big fan of agreeing to disagree. Unless an argument gets really nasty. Either something is true or its not. And whats really true in reality, and the matter of finding out and explaining that truth, is very interesting. So lets do our best to explain what we think is true right?
I don't like buttoning my lip when so many questions are to be asked. And so many interesting things are there to be discussed. And debated.
I enjoy a good discussion. And I enjoy a good debate. Its boring if everyone either agree with each other completely, almost completely, or they just button their lip That's what I think.
What do you think? Anyone?

But of course if anyone DOES agree disagree - fine by me. But I don't personally see why a discussion should end without a good reason. And I don't think failure to agree is a good one. Its disagreements that often add the spice to a discussion. And certainly to a debate or a good argument. If everyone thought the same it would of course be rather boring to say the least.

(December 2, 2008 at 4:22 pm)lukec Wrote: Oh come on.

Perhaps in Xian boards there really are not many chances for conversion for some reason... But here, for example, I try as hard with CR as I do with you, Daystar- that is, I present my point of view and any evidence I have for it. Maybe you're just jealous?

I am not the jealous type, as cliche as that sounds. I enjoy both your and CR's posts, but I do notice that there seems to be some need, though often expressed humorously by Atheists, to convert Xians over. Maybe it is parody of Xianity itself, but it seems genuine to me.

I don't think that the intention is bad. The intenion itself is more of liberation than religious conversion, but the - how could I put it - underlieng desire is there. I don't see why you would be surprised at this, lukec, it is only natural for you to want to see that sort of liberation.

Maybe you are right though, maybe I have seen too many discussion groups and that has distorted my perspective. I certainly don't see anyone as trying to convert me nor think of myself or CR as converting anyone.

Perhaps Bozo just said something that I took wrong. I apologize. I didn't mean to offend.

(November 28, 2008 at 12:15 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: I will reply to everyone in a friendly manner, but I will NOT reply to insults, defamatory statements or remarks, or slanderous remarks towards God.

Buy saying this you insult MY imaginary God who says that no one must ever be told to NOT insult YOUR God. Otherwise this imaginary God of mine is insulted. His names Keith.
Guess I suffer from "imaginary God syndrome". Not to worry there's plenty of company. Its a common illness. Like the common cold Only it has supernatural powers! Although they don't really exist but small price to pay. Superman doesn't really exist and he still is really powerful! Its a laugh. At least I know he's imaginary unlike a lot of people who suffer from "imaginary God syndrome". Although I guess I don't really suffer from it then if I don't really believe.
Damn. I'm not part of the party
Lol :p

Daystar- all I was scoffing at was your implication that atheism/atheists has/have in any way been more strident in their efforts to convert than other religions. For example, I just got back from a play at a local church (which was lovely, excellent music etc) where there was a little mini sermon at the end. Preaching to the converted? Not really- it was a community play. They were trying to draw more people in. And the pastor's speech played on peoples' weaknesses- he was encouraging people who may feel as if they were failing at something to come in and learn about forgiveness etc.

Thinking about it, I actually realize you're right. For me, every mind which does not spend time (in church, or whenever) praising and praying to an imaginary god for which there is no proof, every mind which is not satisfied at the "god did it" answer, is a mind "liberated." These people are free to question life- how we got here, how they can be happy, how they can make others happy. They can realize that to get through a tough situation there is no need for them to rely on an all-powerful being for support, they can use their own personal strength and their family and friends as support. Since I feel that god is just not necessary to explain our lives, every person who I can cause to think outside their own comfortable beliefs is a small victory for me. I don't care if they suddenly renounce their religion or whatever, it's really not important. All I care about is people thinking for themselves, not being told what to think. For example, I was having dinner with some friends the other day, and the topic of creation/evolution came up, and one of my friends just flat out said "I don't believe in evolution because it's a load of shit." Now, when i questioned her, she didn't know the first thing about evolution or its workings- she had been fed, by her pastor (I found out) the idea that "evolution is the idea that we are here because of random mutation" which is obviously impossible. But what she said next made me very frustrated: "I don't care what you say, you're never going to change my mind." It is exactly this type of attitude which disgusts me, and when someone like CoxRox comes along and is willing to listen to what other people have to say, it is actually like a breath of fresh air. Especially so since she has been religious all her life.

I also appreciate people like yourself who are willing to debate the points, although you may be somewhat resistant to anything you disagree with.

(December 2, 2008 at 5:26 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: But lets all still try and explain whats true to us right? I'm not a big fan of agreeing to disagree. Unless an argument gets really nasty. Either something is true or its not. And whats really true in reality, and the matter of finding out and explaining that truth, is very interesting. So lets do our best to explain what we think is true right?
I don't like buttoning my lip when so many questions are to be asked. And so many interesting things are there to be discussed. And debated.
I enjoy a good discussion. And I enjoy a good debate. Its boring if everyone either agree with each other completely, almost completely, or they just button their lip That's what I think.
What do you think? Anyone?

But of course if anyone DOES agree disagree - fine by me. But I don't personally see why a discussion should end without a good reason. And I don't think failure to agree is a good one. Its disagreements that often add the spice to a discussion. And certainly to a debate or a good argument. If everyone thought the same it would of course be rather boring to say the least.

I think we are all diligently trying to 'explain whats true to us right?' as you put it. What is good about you guys here is that everything is backed up by 'evidence' or reason etc. On closer inspection, what we thought of as 'evidence' may well turn out not to be. I don't think anyone is 'buttoning their lip' here. We all speak our minds and get our points over. We had a good debate about IC and I conceded that it has not been proved scientifically. I still believe the inference is there - you believe there is no inference for design. I will continue to study this and my position may change.

(December 3, 2008 at 4:11 am)CoxRox Wrote: I think we are all diligently trying to 'explain whats true to us right?' as you put it. What is good about you guys here is that everything is backed up by 'evidence' or reason etc. On closer inspection, what we thought of as 'evidence' may well turn out not to be. I don't think anyone is 'buttoning their lip' here. We all speak our minds and get our points over. We had a good debate about IC and I conceded that it has not been proved scientifically. I still believe the inference is there - you believe there is no inference for design. I will continue to study this and my position may change.

That's fine by me. I was just referring to that you seemed to want to agree to disagree. When you said "we can always agree to disagree". You can. But I thought you wanted to and I was just giving my opinion on that. But at the same time saying that by all means if you want to then fine. But I just wanted to give my opinion that I like conversations to continue if there's more disagreements As long as it hasn't gotten nasty.
I was just saying that I don't like the whole "agree to disagree" thing unless its guests nasty. And if it gets nasty people often refuse to then anyway!