(July 27, 2013 at 9:39 am)enrico Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 4:21 am)Esquilax Wrote: But my point wasn't what you said, but why you felt qualified to say it at all: the bane of intelligent discourse is bald assertions like yours. I get what you're saying, what I'm asking is what evidence- if any- have you used to come to that conclusion. The question is why you believe this, and you keep coming back by reiterating what you believe. This is not helpful.

I thought it was clear enough why i believe this and what evidence there is since i mention in several occasion how the tantric meditation can open up the hidden consciousness.
Can a whale do meditation?
So the only other way to develop more consciousness will be to take a human body once she can exit the animal constriction and bondage.
In the meantime she will have to wait and live under the constriction of instinct and her limited free will.
Now don't take me wrong and assume that the only way to get more consciousness is to practice tantric yoga.
As the saying.........ALL THE ROAD LEAD TO ROME.
You can develop more consciousness by leading a good life and learn day by day but this procedure take long long time and require many reincarnation.
That is why yoga was given in order to accelerate the process and reduce the torture of a life stuck in a body.

We are not consciousness stuck in a body. That's a denial of our nature.

We are animals of flesh and bone, and we are fortunate enough to have evolved conscious minds. Accept what we are and rejoice.

(July 27, 2013 at 9:48 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 9:39 am)enrico Wrote: I thought it was clear enough why i believe this and what evidence there is since i mention in several occasion how the tantric meditation can open up the hidden consciousness.

Again, this is what you believe, not evidence to support the claim. Now, it might be a different thing, but it's still one of the assertions you subscribe to, and not a framework telling us why it is so.

Example: I have a belief that the earth is round. When asked why, I can bring up the motions of heavenly bodies in the earth's sky, how access to space has allowed us to visually confirm the three dimensional shape of the planet, etc etc. What you have done here is the equivalent of me, upon being asked to support my assertion, simply saying "I've already told you what evidence I have: the earth is round."

Consciousness can not be perceived by the physical senses for the simple reason that is not physical so if you expect a physical evidence you can not get any.
By practicing yoga you will have to withdraw your senses and concentrate in a non physical dimension.
By developing this science you can penetrate to higher level of consciousness and this consciousness stay with you so you know that is a reality.
Now this evidence can not be transfer from me to you and is fair that it work in this way as it should stay with the one who fight for not to the one who would like without having fight for.
You can see a bright aura around saints and spiritual minded people and at the same time you can perceive a dark feeling around rapist and murderers.
All this is clear evidence that you can build your consciousness or you can destroy your consciousness as you go along.

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Chas Wrote:We are not consciousness stuck in a body. That's a denial of our nature.

The more you develop your consciousness and the more you realize that you are stuck in a body.
The problem with so many people is that they have developed the canary syndrome which means that they are so used to live in a cage that they can not contemplate a life outside as they loss their ability to survive outside a cage.
My spiritual teacher was telling how the muslim women are so used to wear something that cover their face that it become the normality when in reality goes against nature so to get used to something does not means that that is normal on the contrary in many cases means to go against nature.

Quote:We are animals of flesh and bone, and we are fortunate enough to have evolved conscious minds. Accept what we are and rejoice.

I do accept but at the same time i strive for total liberation.

(July 27, 2013 at 10:14 am)enrico Wrote: Consciousness can not be perceived by the physical senses for the simple reason that is not physical so if you expect a physical evidence you can not get any.

Brain function can be observed with MRI scanners. That is the physical manifestation of conciousness the firing of neurons can be seen and in some cases interpreted.

Quote:By practicing yoga you will have to withdraw your senses and concentrate in a non physical dimension.
By developing this science you can penetrate to higher level of consciousness and this consciousness stay with you so you know that is a reality.

No, it is an illusion caused by the meditation.
You haven't "raised" anything just got more relaxed.

Quote:
You can see a bright aura around saints and spiritual minded people and at the same time you can perceive a dark feeling around rapist and murderers.

No you can't.
You think you can but you can't. The eyes often play tricks and you seem to be quite gullible.

Rico, how do you know that these feelings that you are interpreting as "higher consciousness" are not simply the effect of neurochemicals upon the brain brought about by deep relaxation techniques? Especially since we know and can prove that such chemicals do exist and actually do affect the brain in such ways.

What seems to be happening is that you're trying to explain to us the rush you get from meditating and insisting it has to be something mystical, whereas we are basically agreeing that you have these fuzzy feelings and saying "yes, it's chemicals in your brain doing that." Put in another context, you're being mindblown by watching a magic trick and sticking your fingers in your ears to someone pointing out that it's not actually magic.

(July 27, 2013 at 10:14 am)enrico Wrote: You can see a bright aura around saints and spiritual minded people and at the same time you can perceive a dark feeling around rapist and murderers.

This is just so ridiculous.

Subjectivity. You've gone with the 'saints = good, murderers = bad' idea which fits in line with your overly simplistic black and white approach to life.

Ignoring the fact that what you describe is nothing more than a personal fantasy you've concocted in your own head, the notion of clearly defined good and bad that 'surrounds' people is just such tripe only a child would conceive of it has being representative of reality.

Joan of arc. A saint to the French, the villain to the English. Hitler, a saint to those who thought a nazi germany would be a strong and independent Germany, a villain to those who fell outside of his perfect society. George Washington, a saint to the patriot movement in the US struggle for indepdence, a villain to those who thought an America under the British crown was preferable.

And so on and so on. Nothing is black and white.

(July 27, 2013 at 10:14 am)enrico Wrote: [quote='Esquilax' pid='484472' dateline='1374932926']

You can see a bright aura around saints and spiritual minded people and at the same time you can perceive a dark feeling around rapist and murderers.

I can see a pink cotton-candy aura around especially delicious children. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

(July 27, 2013 at 6:49 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 10:14 am)enrico Wrote: [quote='Esquilax' pid='484472' dateline='1374932926']

You can see a bright aura around saints and spiritual minded people and at the same time you can perceive a dark feeling around rapist and murderers.

I can see a pink cotton-candy aura around especially delicious children. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

That's odd, the aura I see around tasty children looks like gravy to me.

downbeatplumb Wrote:Brain function can be observed with MRI scanners. That is the physical manifestation of conciousness the firing of neurons can be seen and in some cases interpreted.

Sorry to say but consciousness can not have a physical manifestation for the simple reason that is totally outside the physical arena.
What you can observe with MRI are as you say the brain functions which have little to do with consciousness.
You can see what is inside the computer hardware but you can not see what is inside the person who use the computer.
At the same time you can see what is inside the brain but you can not see what is inside the one who decide what to think or do with the help of the brain.
It has already been experienced by thousand of people who had a NDE experience that as soon as the body and the brain die the consciousness take over and you are still alive without body and mind so to understand how the brains works it does not mean that you can understand how the consciousness work as well.

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(July 27, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(July 27, 2013 at 10:14 am)enrico Wrote: You can see a bright aura around saints and spiritual minded people and at the same time you can perceive a dark feeling around rapist and murderers.

This is just so ridiculous.

Subjectivity. You've gone with the 'saints = good, murderers = bad' idea which fits in line with your overly simplistic black and white approach to life.

Ignoring the fact that what you describe is nothing more than a personal fantasy you've concocted in your own head, the notion of clearly defined good and bad that 'surrounds' people is just such tripe only a child would conceive of it has being representative of reality.

Joan of arc. A saint to the French, the villain to the English. Hitler, a saint to those who thought a nazi germany would be a strong and independent Germany, a villain to those who fell outside of his perfect society. George Washington, a saint to the patriot movement in the US struggle for indepdence, a villain to those who thought an America under the British crown was preferable.And so on and so on. Nothing is black and white.

You are making a terrible confusion.
Nothing is black and white in front of human being but are the human being that will judge the right or wrong or is the karma law?
Sorry no kudos today.

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(July 27, 2013 at 1:31 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Rico, how do you know that these feelings that you are interpreting as "higher consciousness" are not simply the effect of neurochemicals upon the brain brought about by deep relaxation techniques? Especially since we know and can prove that such chemicals do exist and actually do affect the brain in such ways.

What seems to be happening is that you're trying to explain to us the rush you get from meditating and insisting it has to be something mystical, whereas we are basically agreeing that you have these fuzzy feelings and saying "yes, it's chemicals in your brain doing that." Put in another context, you're being mindblown by watching a magic trick and sticking your fingers in your ears to someone pointing out that it's not actually magic.

As Castronaut you also make a terrible confusion.
Drugs and chemical reaction affect the brain ok but those effect last as long as the drugs or chemical reaction last which put a time limit to the process.
On the other hand when you raise your kundalini the effect last as you fight for and conquer the obstacles and that is the reward.
No kudos also for you Stimbo.

English language skills aside, you speak no sense whatsoever.

I can't make heads nor tails of what you're trying to say. "I make terrible confusion?"

Talk sense man!

(July 28, 2013 at 6:46 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: English language skills aside, you speak no sense whatsoever.

I can't make heads nor tails of what you're trying to say. "I make terrible confusion?" Talk sense man!

Sorry for my bad english.
One of the reason why i specified that i born in Italy is to let you know that my mother language is not english so i would be excused for some mistakes.
Anyway coming back to the argument.
You say that nothing is in black and white believing that human being are those who will judge whether something is in black or white in the contest of right or wrong.
No, it can not work like this.
Human being judgement is limited to what they perceive with their senses and according their culture so they can not have a proper judgment in many instances.
Anyone doing an action create a reaction in the good or in the bad so it is this system that prevail at the end.