(January 19, 2010 at 4:36 am)FaithvsFact Wrote:

(January 19, 2010 at 3:58 am)leo-rcc Wrote: Why do you assume the standpoint that we would disagree that strong atheism is a faith based position? There is no need for this whole song and dance, it is.

So can I ask what it is you have faith in? And if you trust these things by faith, what do you count on as fact? It will be helpful if you go back and answer the first two questions I posed so that we can be clear on what you mean by faith and how you establish fact. And as to the song and dance - we haven't even started yet LOL!

I have faith in my own abilities...anything else is a mind wank

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(January 19, 2010 at 1:27 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: Ok thanks for those two replies so far.

Please keep them coming! I'd like to work some way towards a common definition first before continuing.

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(January 19, 2010 at 1:18 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: 1) Scientific
2) Delusion

Presumably you are saying a (not "the") scientific method establishes fact? And also that faith is synonymous with delusion? Can you please confirm?

You assume way to much grasshopper!!

Scientific method is the only available method to establish anything that could be remotely consigned to fact....it involves logic, deduction and analysis of available data.

Faith is synonymous to delusion in regards to religion. I have faith in my self and my abilities...many would think that I am delusional...

next?

(January 19, 2010 at 12:36 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: (1) Please define what you consider to be the basis or method for establishing fact

Other than logical argument and deduction, I don't think there are any methods for establishing fact.

Quote:(2) Please define what you consider to be faith, and how do you see this is different from fact?

Having a belief in something without having good evidence to do so. I disagree with leo's definition. I don't think believing that the sun will come up tomorrow is a faith based position, since you have good reason to believe so, same with having a job next month.

As for how it is different from fact? Facts are true. Faith positions have a possibility of being true.

Quote:Once we've agreed on those two we'll continue.

I don't really see the point in this though. I don't think many on this forum would disagree with you, even the strong atheists.

(January 19, 2010 at 7:51 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(January 19, 2010 at 12:36 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: (1) Please define what you consider to be the basis or method for establishing fact

Quote:Other than logical argument and deduction, I don't think there are any methods for establishing fact.

I am addressing this post to strong atheists who make the claim that "certain types of gods definitely do not exist. An atheist may be gnostic towards the non-existence of some types of gods yet an agnostic atheist towards other types of gods.... Strong Atheism is the proposition that we should not suspend judgment about the non-existence of a god or gods". This definition is from this forum "Important information for theists". They are entitled to make the claim but on what basis are they making that claim? That their claim is fact, at least in their eyes? Further on you say that facts are those statements that must be "true".

Quote:(2) Please define what you consider to be faith, and how do you see this is different from fact?

Quote:Having a belief in something without having good evidence to do so. I disagree with leo's definition. I don't think believing that the sun will come up tomorrow is a faith based position, since you have good reason to believe so, same with having a job next month.

As for how it is different from fact? Facts are true. Faith positions have a possibility of being true.

If that is how you are defining faith, I would like you to confirm that you agree to it because I would like to apply that definition to strong atheists and hear their views on it... especially where you say faith is "Having a belief in something without having good evidence to do so... Facts are true. Faith positions have a possibility of being true."

Quote:Once we've agreed on those two we'll continue.

I don't really see the point in this though. I don't think many on this forum would disagree with you, even the strong atheists.

My interest is from strong atheists who make that positive assertion as defined by this forum. I am not focusing on any other kind of atheist for the purposes of this scope.

I am not sure if you are a strong atheist or not, but I would like to hear from strong atheists about their answers to my original two questions.

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(January 19, 2010 at 1:15 am)littlegrimlin1 Wrote: Well, I used to be a Strong Atheist.... before I realized that it was faith based.. so I'll answer anyway.
Agnostic Atheist btw.

(1) Establishing a fact, hmm, I think facts could be established if a statement is always found true, without exception. Like, the Earth revolves around the sun. At this moment, and thousands of years ago, the Earth has revolved around the sun, and it will continue to (until everything just falls apart)

(2) Faith is belief without evidence (my fav. definition, but there are other suitable ones) such as having faith in a spegetti monster existing, no evidence, therefore faith, not fact

Ok thanks for your definitions. They are useful and a strong atheist might hold similar definitions... but I notice that you are not a strong atheist so thanks for your time... unless you felt you wanted to contribute further.

I am an agnostic atheist (I realize that one cannot totally disprove the existence of God, but, of course, one cannot totally disprove anything else.)
The way I see it
1) Evidence.
2) Belief in a thing that is independent of the evidence for that thing.

(January 19, 2010 at 8:35 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: My interest is from strong atheists who make that positive assertion as defined by this forum. I am not focusing on any other kind of atheist for the purposes of this scope.

I am not sure if you are a strong atheist or not, but I would like to hear from strong atheists about their answers to my original two questions.

Well, that first depends on how you define strong atheists, as I've seen it defined a couple different ways.

I consider myself a strong atheist insofar as I believe there are no personal Gods as described in the many religions of the world, and I have based those reasons on science and evidence because those Gods each have specific claims and attributes that can be tested for. I will, however, not make the claim that there absolutely is no God at all, it's impossible to know.

(January 19, 2010 at 10:27 am)Eilonnwy Wrote:

(January 19, 2010 at 8:35 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: My interest is from strong atheists who make that positive assertion as defined by this forum. I am not focusing on any other kind of atheist for the purposes of this scope.

I am not sure if you are a strong atheist or not, but I would like to hear from strong atheists about their answers to my original two questions.

Well, that first depends on how you define strong atheists, as I've seen it defined a couple different ways.

I consider myself a strong atheist insofar as I believe there are no personal Gods as described in the many religions of the world, and I have based those reasons on science and evidence because those Gods each have specific claims and attributes that can be tested for. I will, however, not make the claim that there absolutely is no God at all, it's impossible to know.

I don't think you are a strong atheist according to the definition of a strong atheist which I have come across which is from strongatheism.net:

"Strong Atheism is the proposition that we should not suspend judgment about the non-existence of a god or gods. More extensively, it is a positive position against theistic values, semantics and anti-materialism, a rational inquiry in the nature of religious thought, a new way of thinking about religious and spiritual issues."

When you say "I will, however, not make the claim that there absolutely is no God at all, it's impossible to know" you are "suspending non-judgement".

Thus, you are not the target of my post. My scope is for the bona-fide strong atheist. Are you all agnostic atheists or apatheists? I wonder if there are any genuine strong atheists on this forum?

I will keep pressing on.

I think Purple Rabbit is, and perhaps one or two more.

(January 19, 2010 at 11:02 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: Thus, you are not the target of my post. My scope is for the bona-fide strong atheist. Are you all agnostic atheists or apatheists? I wonder if there are any genuine strong atheists on this forum?

I will keep pressing on.

You will be hard pressed to find one who specifically makes that claim because I think most atheists here are intellectual honest and recognize the difficulty in asserting a negative.

(January 19, 2010 at 5:40 am)FaithvsFact Wrote:

(January 19, 2010 at 4:42 am)theVOID Wrote: Lmao Leo, totally right.

I get the feeling that our new friend here, FaithVsFact, has a bit of a disingenuous agenda.

Who else uses a name on a forum that mirrors their first agenda?

I also find it rather Ironic that your name is FaithvsFact and yet you obviously subscribe to the former part of your name, implying that the main claims of Christianity are non factual, which is true, yet you seem to have a problem with strong Atheists taking the same position.

Hypocrisy much?

Actually its my turn to laugh ha ha! If you read my first opening statement I wanted to demonstrate that strong atheists foundationally start from faith which is what you have since confirmed - so in fact - I don't have a problem with that at all! But to be clear - I still require you to define for me what you mean by faith and what you use to establish fact. Someone posted about using science - is this true for you?

I use the scientific method for scientific claims, it is by fat the best methodology for establishing truth clams that we have, it's results are testament to this success.

I consider faith a belief that is neither logical nor based on evidence.

(January 19, 2010 at 12:36 am)FaithvsFact Wrote: (1) Please define what you consider to be the basis or method for establishing fact

Science, logic, critical thinking.

Quote:(2) Please define what you consider to be faith, and how do you see this is different from fact?

I have faith in myself. I believe in myself. I choose my destiny. I, not the invisible man in the sky, am in control of my life. I don't think that differs to much from fact because it is a fact that I'm here typing this now.

Quote:I will, however, not make the claim that there absolutely is no God at all, it's impossible to know.

I'll make that claim. I find it impossible to believe in any god so for me there is absolutely no god.