(September 25, 2013 at 2:30 am)catfish Wrote: If you do, go back to where I first asked you if you had labeled all nonbelievers as deceivers and either support your answer that the Bible does what you claim or correct your mistake.

I wouldn't label all nonbelievers as deceivers. Many are no doubt entirely sincere in the faith they push on their offspring. I'll bet most put up a front with their kids which masks their own doubts though. In some cases they may feel like deceivers. If you have children and bring them up in a religion, will you have to put on a front for them? (I can't tell.)

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(September 25, 2013 at 3:06 am)catfish Wrote: Show me the evidence of that claim dumbasses...

That's unfair! I've never made any claim for the intelligence of my bottom.

(September 25, 2013 at 12:08 am)catfish Wrote:

(September 24, 2013 at 11:07 am)Airyaman Wrote: Is this what passes for responses around here from theists? OK, so you aren't going to be doing your god any favors...

What did you expect? I asked earlier if you claimed to know the context to which you answered "no".
I showed you your response to my direct question about whether or not you'd read the entire chapter. You claimed to have and that nothing in the context blah blah blah.

I wanted to know if your denial of knowing the context and your incorrect/incomplete information about it was an honest mistake, stupidity or a lie.
Your response makes me think stupidity, but my gut say liar...

What's sad is that in or out of context, the result is the same. There really isn't any context in that passage that would change the meaning. The writer did not point to any known group, he simply stated that many deceivers have gone out in to the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. He then says those people are deceivers and antichrist. Anyone who grasps the English language should understand this. With the exception of yourself of course.

But you want context? Sure, here's some: the writer uses the term "antichrist" more than once.

1Jn_2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Now if you do read more than just those verses, it does appear that the writer is speaking of someone specifically, however, you can see a running theme of identifying "antichrist" with those who basically deny Jesus is Christ and is from God. How many atheists do you know that actually confess those things?

It seems there are Christians out there who agree with this. For example, http://doverchurchofchrist.info/wp-conte...2-John.pdf for instance, where the writer identifies Muslims, atheists, agnostics and even Catholics (among others) as these "deceivers".

So one has to ask, do atheists fit into the category of "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh", yes or no? Such a simple question to answer, let's see if you can do it.

(September 25, 2013 at 3:05 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(September 25, 2013 at 12:08 am)catfish Wrote: You did not "read the passage" or else you would have understood the sentence structure.
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

(Many) deceivers are the subject(s), not unbelievers.
These many deceivers are the ones (who) confess not... (still deceivers here, no magical leap to unbelievers)
This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (the deceivers who confesses not...)
See? Nowhere in your verse does it say unbelievers are the anti-christ.

Check mate, now slink away...
God this is too fucking easy.

Or, consider for a moment how sentences are actually structured: Deceivers are the subject, confessing not of Jesus is the action that- in this case- marks them as deceivers.

Rather: there are deceivers in the world. What is the quality of these deceivers that makes them so? Not confessing that Jesus has come.

The absolute best that you can say, fishy, is that the sentence applies equally to both of our positions. But since mine relies on just my claim being true, and yours relies on mine being false- and it isn't- then the checkmate is mine.

Or you could keep cherry picking. I imagine you're good at it by now. Just don't expect those of us with working brains to be fooled by your selective reading.

No, the absolute "best" I can say is "thank you for the ammusement", the rest will just be painful for your fragile ego.

"Confessing not.." doesn't mark them as deceivers, they were already deceivers as noted by the following verse which you posted. "This is a deceiver and an antichrist"...
See? Still a deceiver and an anti-christ (that's the proper understanding of the word "and", just so you know).

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(September 25, 2013 at 3:35 am)Airyaman Wrote:

(September 25, 2013 at 12:08 am)catfish Wrote: What did you expect? I asked earlier if you claimed to know the context to which you answered "no".
I showed you your response to my direct question about whether or not you'd read the entire chapter. You claimed to have and that nothing in the context blah blah blah.

I wanted to know if your denial of knowing the context and your incorrect/incomplete information about it was an honest mistake, stupidity or a lie.
Your response makes me think stupidity, but my gut say liar...

What's sad is that in or out of context, the result is the same. There really isn't any context in that passage that would change the meaning. The writer did not point to any known group, he simply stated that many deceivers have gone out in to the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. He then says those people are deceivers and antichrist. Anyone who grasps the English language should understand this. With the exception of yourself of course.

But you want context? Sure, here's some: the writer uses the term "antichrist" more than once.

1Jn_2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Now if you do read more than just those verses, it does appear that the writer is speaking of someone specifically, however, you can see a running theme of identifying "antichrist" with those who basically deny Jesus is Christ and is from God. How many atheists do you know that actually confess those things?

It seems there are Christians out there who agree with this. For example, http://doverchurchofchrist.info/wp-conte...2-John.pdf for instance, where the writer identifies Muslims, atheists, agnostics and even Catholics (among others) as these "deceivers".

So one has to ask, do atheists fit into the category of "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh", yes or no? Such a simple question to answer, let's see if you can do it.

Did you answer that bolded part yet?
Anyways, it's funny how you bring two more verses that are warnings about false teachers also.

(September 25, 2013 at 3:39 am)catfish Wrote: No, the absolute "best" I can say is "thank you for the ammusement", the rest will just be painful for your fragile ego.

"Confessing not.." doesn't mark them as deceivers, they were already deceivers as noted by the following verse which you posted. "This is a deceiver and an antichrist"...
See? Still a deceiver and an anti-christ (that's the proper understanding of the word "and", just so you know).

Okay, let's play the logic game again, then: what is the base premise of the bible? That god is real, Jesus is the messiah, and all men know this to be true, whether they profess it or not. Given these premises, none of which I think you'll want to argue against, what does that make a guy like me, who does not profess belief? Well, a liar... or a deceiver... I mentioned this before, but you seem to have ignored it. Along with the verses demanding that we be shunned and killed for our lack of belief in the correct god.

Besides, the verse in question, along with the surrounding passage, is so vague it does, in fact, support both positions. You've yet to do anything other than assert that it doesn't support mine, and unsurprisingly, I don't take bare assertions from theists to be remotely trustworthy.

le sigh

catfish, ignoring every one of my posts that demonstrates my point does not---and I'll Rrepeat--DOES NOT--equate to anything besides you being a douche canoe.
Since this is my thread I will Continue to point out every single post you've blatantly ignored, over and over and over and Over. I'm frustrated beyond the point of giving a shit but that only makes me persistent. Wanna do this for another 37 pgs? I will not quit until you acknowledge and address my posts with a refutation of intellectual merit.

(September 23, 2013 at 9:32 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: If you were paying attention I made a complete case in one single post earlier in this thread with bible verses alone. Which you've summarily ignored, then re-ignored when I put all my posts together for your convenience.

bible Wrote:1 John 5:10-12
The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

And.. what happens to liars? God's wrath.

bible Wrote:Revelation 19:11-21 ESV

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...

He seems very angry for someone who is cleaning up a mess he made on purpose in the first place.

bible Wrote:John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.


Romans 6:23 ESV

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

According to your bible, I sin just like you sin. Difference being it's okay for you because you have Jesus Christ to wash them away afterwards.

bible Wrote:Revelation 20:15 ESV
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It's quite clear here what happens to those not in the book of life. Cue squiggling now.

(September 25, 2013 at 3:39 am)catfish Wrote: Did you answer that bolded part yet?
Anyways, it's funny how you bring two more verses that are warnings about false teachers also.

Yes, false teachers of the day, but you've also failed to answer this: "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Do atheists do this, yes or no?

Such a simple question.

(September 25, 2013 at 7:57 am)Airyaman Wrote: Yes, false teachers of the day, but you've also failed to answer this: "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Do atheists do this, yes or no?

Such a simple question.

Did you answer that bolded part yet?

Such a simple question.

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(September 25, 2013 at 4:49 am)missluckie26 Wrote: le sigh

catfish, ignoring every one of my posts that demonstrates my point does not---and I'll Rrepeat--DOES NOT--equate to anything besides you being a douche canoe.
Since this is my thread I will Continue to point out every single post you've blatantly ignored, over and over and over and Over. I'm frustrated beyond the point of giving a shit but that only makes me persistent. Wanna do this for another 37 pgs? I will not quit until you acknowledge and address my posts with a refutation of intellectual merit.

Why are you still here when you still haven't provided evidence for your earlier claims. EVERYTHING you have posted since rests on your fallacious assumptions earlier in this thread.
You want something to work with? Try working with that for once.

From post #25 (of 387 currently)
http://atheistforums.org/thread-20756-po...#pid504230

(September 9, 2013 at 6:00 pm)catfish Wrote:

(September 9, 2013 at 1:16 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Aractus why exactly don't you believe the Bible is the unerring word of god? It says it is, after all. And it says to follow it or you will go to hell. ...
<snip>

Proof of claim?

(September 25, 2013 at 7:57 am)Airyaman Wrote: Yes, false teachers of the day, but you've also failed to answer this: "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Do atheists do this, yes or no?

Such a simple question.

Some do, some don't. Historicity of Jesus is debated by atheists.

(September 25, 2013 at 2:27 pm)John V Wrote:

(September 25, 2013 at 7:57 am)Airyaman Wrote: Yes, false teachers of the day, but you've also failed to answer this: "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Do atheists do this, yes or no?

Such a simple question.

Some do, some don't. Historicity of Jesus is debated by atheists.

Find me an atheist who believes in Jesus-as-deity-incarnate. I won't hold my breath.

There certainly are atheists who accept Jesus-as-preacher, without all the supernatural baggage. You may as well debate the historicity of Tony Stark without Iron Man.

(September 25, 2013 at 2:27 pm)John V Wrote:

(September 25, 2013 at 7:57 am)Airyaman Wrote: Yes, false teachers of the day, but you've also failed to answer this: "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Do atheists do this, yes or no?

Such a simple question.

Some do, some don't. Historicity of Jesus is debated by atheists.

Jesus yes, Jesus Christ, no.

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(September 25, 2013 at 12:03 pm)catfish Wrote:

(September 25, 2013 at 7:57 am)Airyaman Wrote: Yes, false teachers of the day, but you've also failed to answer this: "those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Do atheists do this, yes or no?

Such a simple question.

Did you answer that bolded part yet?

Such a simple question.

My answer has absolutely no bearing on the passage itself and also does not effect the actual meaning of the passage. In any case, I looked at the context, and there is absolutely nothing that disqualifies the verse from saying what it says, that deceivers, according to the author, are those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. That would cover about any atheist I know.