Hi Vinny. I just want to say that it doesn't take a WHOLE lot of smarts for an atheist to notice that religious people have an invisible friend. That's all the nonsense an atheist needs to know in order to say (like we tell our children), 'No darlin', there are no monsters in the closet, no monsters under the bed, and there's no such thing as an invisible friend.'

(September 24, 2013 at 11:14 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: I had some time, so I came back to pay a visit to my friends over on this forum. Sup.

And I've been thinking about rationality lately. Let me just lay it on you like butter on toast.

Almost all atheism is irrational. Why?

A lot of us point to the supposed intelligence of atheists, but what I've come to realize is that most of us have become atheists at quite a young age. Too young, honestly, to have a full grasp of our logical faculties or the world around us. Age 13 or 14 is simply not when your mind is fully developed. This includes the vast majority of atheist intellectuals who become atheists at a young age and just engage in confirmation bias throughout their academic careers.

Atheists whine. A lot. If you spend time on internet forums, you notice 98% of their time is spent hating Christians and whining about Christianity. For a "rational", "skeptical" group of people, such lack of rationality is alarmingly hypocritical.

About matters of the intellect, atheists are very superficially educated. They have a basic foundation down "EVOLUTION RULZ, GOD SUX HAHA I HAVE BIBEL VURSES THAT SUX LOL" but fundamental nuances are often glossed over or missed because their interest is not in knowing things, but in confirming what they want to be true.

"Ah but Vinny Gabagool, atheists know more about the Bible, look at the stats!" You will say, no doubt pointing to some stats. "Nonsense!" I will reply. While most religions are entirely focused on knowing about their own religion, atheists, for the most part are anti-theists. So everything they need to know is anti-religious dogma. Biblical contradictions, the euthyphro dilemma, wise-ass sayings that are actually nonsensical- these are de facto atheist teachings. So of course, they would "know more" their entire existence depends on their hatred against people who believe in a God!

When I started off as a skeptic, I started with a sense of intimidation. I was scared of all the intellectuals. Now that I'm a little older, a little smarter, a little more educated....I feel sorry for them.

Bold added by me...

Read ONLY the bold parts - like a story.

(September 26, 2013 at 4:46 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:Ryantology: Ooh, good point! Rational response #3! It doesn't prove atheism is itself rational, you're right. But I think it shows that for the vast majority of atheists, their atheism is irrational.

The way that we interact with Christians doesn't really say anything about the rationality of our lack of belief which, for the majority of us, is based upon entirely sound reasoning: we don't accept the claim as true because there's no evidence compelling enough to make it acceptable.

Just because an atheist acts irrational doesn't mean that their atheism is irrational.

I was gonna do pages three and four, but this is significant enough to deserve a response:

"No."

Atheists are desperate to rationalize their atheism, and "We find insufficient evidence" makes for the perfect cover.

But how do we know if this is the reason? How do we test to see if this hypothesis is true, rather than other, non-rational hypotheses?

I propose the answer is to look at what atheists criticize about religion. If it is really about rationality, we will see rational criticisms. We won't see things like this. Or this.

If you're honest, you will find the vast majority of posts, even in this very thread, to be of that nature.

This tells me atheism is more about hatred and rage, bitterness and victimhood than merely "I don't see enough evidence."

How many discussions do atheists have among themselves about the evidence, and what counts as evidence in an intellectually rigorous manner?

The answer to that question is enough to make my point for me.

Yeah... why are we not looking for unicorns, and dragons, and pixies, and fairies?...
It's completely irrational to not believe that any of these exist, isn't it Vinny?

(September 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Atheists are desperate to rationalize their atheism, and "We find insufficient evidence" makes for the perfect cover.

But how do we know if this is the reason? How do we test to see if this hypothesis is true, rather than other, non-rational hypotheses?

But you do agree that insufficient evidence does rationalise atheism, and indeed any lack of belief, correct?

You're strife is with atheists who lack belief for other reasons. If so, your original post is monstrously misleading; makes one think you're putting forward that atheism in itself is irrational.

(September 26, 2013 at 5:30 pm)Gilgamesh Wrote:

(September 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Atheists are desperate to rationalize their atheism, and "We find insufficient evidence" makes for the perfect cover.

But how do we know if this is the reason? How do we test to see if this hypothesis is true, rather than other, non-rational hypotheses?

But you do agree that insufficient evidence does rationalise atheism, and indeed any lack of belief, correct?

You're strife is with atheists who lack belief for other reasons. If so, your original post is monstrously misleading; makes one think you're putting forward that atheism in itself is irrational.

It could, if insufficient evidence were demonstrable using rigorous methodology.

As it is, every atheist pulls a methodology out of their ass, and- what's this? Insufficient evidence again? What a coincidence, amirite?

It's like the conclusion comes before the methodology for these atheists. And as far as I am concerned, that's fraud. That the majority of atheists are committing this fraud is, as far as I'm concerned, a serious intellectual problem in the atheist community.

(September 26, 2013 at 4:33 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: pocaras: No, it doesn't. Think about other possible explanations whose mere possibility rules out your conclusion. Good try though.

Like:
- Theists are really intelligent, but indoctrination just took hold of them too early... before the intelligence kicked in... before ages 13~14, apparently...
- Theists are really intelligent, but a bit delusional.
- Theists are really intelligent, but also indulge in their feelings... and they feel there must be a loving, caring entity out there looking over this chaos and making things right... clearly not in this life, so it must be in some other "life".

Shall I go on?

You are aware that theism does not correlate with intelligence, right?
Neither does atheism correlate with intelligence.
Neither does atheism at a young age.

Some people who do become atheists at a young age were brought up in a relaxed religious environment. This, coupled with an inquisitive mind and the wealth of information available... also with the absence of factual material on any of the gods that religions claim exist, and the fact that there are, to this day, multiple religions, each claiming its own set of gods... can easily lead one youngster to think that maybe... just maybe... they're all equally right... or equally wrong.
Once you realize this "maybe", it's all downhill.

Vinny, you and Waldork should hook up.

(September 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: Atheists are desperate to rationalize their atheism, and "We find insufficient evidence" makes for the perfect cover.

Lack of evidence is a perfectly valid and rational reason to withhold belief of a claim.

Quote:But how do we know if this is the reason? How do we test to see if this hypothesis is true, rather than other, non-rational hypotheses?

We know the hypothesis is true because I (and the vast majority of atheists) have not been presented with sufficient evidence to justify belief, for us.

As of now, I have not been presented with sufficient evidence to support the claim that a god exists.

Quote:This tells me atheism is more about hatred and rage, bitterness and victimhood than merely "I don't see enough evidence."

I have none of that toward theists in general. Most of my family and friends are theists.

Quote:How many discussions do atheists have among themselves about the evidence, and what counts as evidence in an intellectually rigorous manner?

Happens all the time. Dennett, Harris, Weinberg, Sagan and many others have written books. The subject is part of any basic philosophy department.

My friends and I, some atheists, some theists have these discussions all the time.

(September 26, 2013 at 5:41 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(September 26, 2013 at 4:33 pm)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: pocaras: No, it doesn't. Think about other possible explanations whose mere possibility rules out your conclusion. Good try though.

Like:
- Theists are really intelligent, but indoctrination just took hold of them too early... before the intelligence kicked in... before ages 13~14, apparently...
- Theists are really intelligent, but a bit delusional.
- Theists are really intelligent, but also indulge in their feelings... and they feel there must be a loving, caring entity out there looking over this chaos and making things right... clearly not in this life, so it must be in some other "life".

Shall I go on?

You are aware that theism does not correlate with intelligence, right?
Neither does atheism correlate with intelligence.
Neither does atheism at a young age.

Some people who do become atheists at a young age were brought up in a relaxed religious environment. This, coupled with an inquisitive mind and the wealth of information available... also with the absence of factual material on any of the gods that religions claim exist, and the fact that there are, to this day, multiple religions, each claiming its own set of gods... can easily lead one youngster to think that maybe... just maybe... they're all equally right... or equally wrong.
Once you realize this "maybe", it's all downhill.

No please don't go on. You're just digging the hole deeper for yourself.

Children at a young age can be skeptical of a lot of things. And for very stupid reasons. See quantum mechanics. See the idea that there are things more important than how you look and how popular you are. That life is less about following your dreams and more about luck, planning and hard work. That most people who play sports in high school won't make it professional just because they want to. Children can often be stupid. And atheism can just be one example of their stupidity.