Rational AKD Wrote:Why doesn't God do miracles today? because God doesn't aspire to convince everyone of his existence. you may think that to be his goal but it's not. if he performed mass miracles seen by many, everyone would most definitely have to acknowledge his existence. but then that will invoke a response of fear from everyone. they could not live freely by choosing to obey and disobey God. they would be worried of provoking God's wrath at any given moment. and those who aspire to follow him will do so by their own purposes, and no one will truly follow God for love which is what he desires from us. if God were to demonstrate his power to everyone, it would only invoke fear within everyone and not instill love. creating this fear would in turn create selfishness inspiring people to save themselves instead of loving God. it would be counter productive to his goal.
PS, this isn't my best argument.

And as you and I have discussed, a great way to debunk this is to read the Bible itself; Lucifer and A&E knew of God's existence, yet they failed to do everything you say they should have done as people who *knew* of God's existence.

RationalAKD-

Yours isn't even an argument.

Unless you are, or speak for, the sumbitch, you cannot say shit. And the fear bit? You speak for everyone else on the planet?

(October 6, 2013 at 10:14 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: But what I keep trying to tell you is that if "souls" exist, they're part of the materialistic and natural universe. They would have properties that could be studied and understood.

not necessarily. just because they affect the materialistic and natural universe doesn't mean they are a part of it.

Quote:1. Natural selection doesn't necessarily weed out neutral traits or even work to produce the most optimal species.

the 'neutral traits' though don't give a reason our cognitive reasoning skills would be accurate. it's far more likely they were developed for the purpose of survival.

Quote:We have "wisdom teeth" which are certainly not things that promote survival. They're actually quite destructive to our dental health.

if you did a little research, you would know the reason that wisdom teeth don't come in properly is because of our modern diets.

Quote:We have an appendix that once served a purpose but now just explodes.

again, your information is poorly researched. the appendix is now found to be vital in early development of the immune system. so long as you don't get appendicitis, the appendix continues to be useful.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ction-of-t

Quote:We breath and eat out of the same orifice, causing choking if food isn't chewed properly.

the reason it's like that is efficiency and to allow the lynx to give us the ability of speech.

Quote:2. I'm still fuzzy on the whole, "pursuit of the truth is counter-survival" thesis you've presented. What has allowed us to survive is our ability to work together and build communities. A society of paranoid humans would be dysfunctional in its ability to cooperate and coexist and therefore be maladaptive to survival.

paranoia doesn't create dysfunctional communities. it actually strengthens communities. what do people do when they feel threatened? they ban together. imagine that... humans form societies for survival, and paranoia only strengthens that bond, as you can see in modern politics when they construct 'fear campaigns.'

Quote:And as I've already said, yes you can. You look for internal consistency and support from verified data.

I don't know how else to put this. consistency does not equal accuracy. simple as that, your test failed.

Quote: Saying you can't validate reason without reason is like saying you can't validate what one book says because it footnotes another book by another reputable source.

how did you even get that analogy? do you even know what you're saying? reason without reason? that's like trying to breathe without air. or write without a utensil, or a surface. without reason, you can't reason. without speech, you can't talk. without sight, you can't see. get it? to suggest otherwise is logically absurd. if we all collectively had false reason, we couldn't possibly tell since we all consistently have false reason. comparing does no good in that case.

Quote:Why is naturalism supposedly prone to solipsism where magical thinking is not?

maybe you should listen for a change. if naturalism is true, evolution is driven for the need to survive. discerning truth is not necessarily the most beneficial to survival, therefore many of our reasoning skills would not necessarily discern truth as we would like to think. if that is the case, we can't trust any of our reasoning skills to discern truth.

Quote:In what way does your magical thinking free you from solipsism where naturalism would not?

as I've said, the belief in God allows an alternate explanation as to where our reasoning skills came from. the will of God. if God created this world for us, or us for this world; he would want us to experience his creation and thus give us accurate reasoning skills. it may not be substantiated, but at least it doesn't necessarily lead to denying our reasoning skills as naturalism does.

(October 9, 2013 at 5:47 am)FallentoReason Wrote: And as you and I have discussed, a great way to debunk this is to read the Bible itself; Lucifer and A&E knew of God's existence, yet they failed to do everything you say they should have done as people who *knew* of God's existence.

the point was to show those who try and appease God will fail if God reveals himself to convince people of his existence. this of course doesn't apply to those who don't try. Lucifer acted selfishly by trying to appease himself by trying to exceed God. Adam and Eve likewise wished to appease themselves by becoming 'like God.' i'm not saying sin would be eliminated, i'm saying the love for God would be replaced by self righteousness.

---

(October 9, 2013 at 5:49 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote: RationalAKD-

Yours isn't even an argument.

Unless you are, or speak for, the sumbitch, you cannot say shit. And the fear bit? You speak for everyone else on the planet?

show me one time a successful attempt at forcing love. i'm not speaking for the planet, i'm speaking for what is possible and impossible. you can't force love. if God revealed himself, humans would either fear and try to become self-righteous or fear him and rebel against him. neither of those reactions are what God wants. tell me, if God showed up to you and showed you his awesome power, would this cause you to love him?

(October 9, 2013 at 8:02 am)Rational AKD Wrote:

(October 9, 2013 at 5:49 am)Captain Colostomy Wrote: RationalAKD-

Yours isn't even an argument.

Unless you are, or speak for, the sumbitch, you cannot say shit. And the fear bit? You speak for everyone else on the planet?

show me one time a successful attempt at forcing love. i'm not speaking for the planet, i'm speaking for what is possible and impossible. you can't force love. if God revealed himself, humans would either fear and try to become self-righteous or fear him and rebel against him. neither of those reactions are what God wants. tell me, if God showed up to you and showed you his awesome power, would this cause you to love him?

Excuses, excuses, excuses... I guess that's why they call it apologia...
If such a god does in fact exist AND does not want us to actually know about it, then how do you know about it?
How does anyone know about it?
Why would I be required to believe what you people say about it?
Love from gullibility?... no, thank you.

If such an entity would appear to me and show me, beyond a doubt, that it was indeed the creator god, I'd like to have a bit of a chat as part of that demonstration. I'd expect to be convinced that it had darn good reasons to do whatever has been done in the past by said entity. Heck, this wouldn't be beyond its power, would it?
Love is earned, like respect and admiration. Not believed into existence.

(October 8, 2013 at 3:22 am)genkaus Wrote: [. . .] you seem to have lost the perspective within this thread. The central issue here is if the fact that our rational processes evolved in any way compromises their ability to determine the truth. You seem to be arguing that, in fact, it is impossible for our perceptual and conceptual faculties to determine the whole truth, which means - what, exactly? That they are inherently compromised for determining any truth?

Not at all. You can determine truth in the context of your abilities. You can see bricks and mortar, and you can test how they perform in different conditions, and with experience you can build a bridge that stands for a long time. You can observe objects pulling toward each other in space, infer the math behind gravity, and use it to infer massive bodies though you can't see them.

However, when you want to use those abilities to establish whether they are child to a parent, this is impossible. If they ARE child to a parent, i.e. a subset of all possible perceptions, then humans are intrinsically limited. If they ARE NOT child to a parent, i.e. there is no perception which (at least with the aid of technology) we are unable to explore, then we're fine.

But here's the question-- how do you use a subset to establish truths about its parent, or to establish that there is no parent? As far as I know, this is impossible.

(October 9, 2013 at 9:17 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(October 9, 2013 at 8:02 am)Rational AKD Wrote: show me one time a successful attempt at forcing love. i'm not speaking for the planet, i'm speaking for what is possible and impossible. you can't force love. if God revealed himself, humans would either fear and try to become self-righteous or fear him and rebel against him. neither of those reactions are what God wants. tell me, if God showed up to you and showed you his awesome power, would this cause you to love him?

Excuses, excuses, excuses... I guess that's why they call it apologia...
If such a god does in fact exist AND does not want us to actually know about it, then how do you know about it?
How does anyone know about it?
Why would I be required to believe what you people say about it?
Love from gullibility?... no, thank you.

I didn't say that... you're straw manning. I said God doesn't want to make his existence undeniable to everyone. to be more accurate, he doesn't want to gather followers by convincing them of his existence. how do we know anything about him? because he reveals it in the bible. I would say there's good enough evidence supporting the bible's claims, though of course it's not undeniable. but that's the point. the bible isn't meant to necessarily convince people of his existence, but to tell us about him once we're convinced.

Quote:If such an entity would appear to me and show me, beyond a doubt, that it was indeed the creator god, I'd like to have a bit of a chat as part of that demonstration. I'd expect to be convinced that it had darn good reasons to do whatever has been done in the past by said entity. Heck, this wouldn't be beyond its power, would it?
Love is earned, like respect and admiration. Not believed into existence.

good reasons? lol, I suspect his answer would be similar to his answer to Job in Job 38-41.

(October 9, 2013 at 11:08 am)Rational AKD Wrote:

(October 9, 2013 at 9:17 am)pocaracas Wrote: Excuses, excuses, excuses... I guess that's why they call it apologia...
If such a god does in fact exist AND does not want us to actually know about it, then how do you know about it?
How does anyone know about it?
Why would I be required to believe what you people say about it?
Love from gullibility?... no, thank you.

I didn't say that... you're straw manning. I said God doesn't want to make his existence undeniable to everyone.

Oh... so only a few chosen can be made aware of the reality of that entity?
How can you make sure that those chosen are not bullshitting you?
How can you make sure you're not being conned?
How can you be sure you're not indoctrinated into a lie?

(October 9, 2013 at 11:08 am)Rational AKD Wrote: to be more accurate, he doesn't want to gather followers by convincing them of his existence. how do we know anything about him? because he reveals it in the bible.

And how did the bible come to be?
MEN wrote it.

(October 9, 2013 at 11:08 am)Rational AKD Wrote: I would say there's good enough evidence supporting the bible's claims, though of course it's not undeniable. but that's the point. the bible isn't meant to necessarily convince people of his existence, but to tell us about him once we're convinced.

Oh ye of little sight!
That is exactly the same sort of evidence that exists to support the qur'an... or any other "holy" book that MEN have written, or may write in the future.
I find it unbelievable that so many people have a hard time discerning this huge detail.
It's like the bible is the only book claiming that there is a god.... -.-'

(October 9, 2013 at 5:41 am)Rational AKD Wrote: Why doesn't God do miracles today? because God doesn't aspire to convince everyone of his existence. you may think that to be his goal but it's not...

I'm sorry, has a new god moved into town and Christians decided to worship that one instead of the one I read about in the Bible?

When did the same god, Yahweh, in the Bible, suddenly decide on a policy of subtlety? When did the god Yahweh decide that inspiring fear was not a good thing and yet keep the policy of dumping all the unbelievers into a place of eternal torment? Either you haven't read your Bible or your god has had some kind of religious, transfiguration experience. Perhaps your god has been attending anger management courses?

Seriously, dude, read the Bible and either get your god consistent with the character depicted in it or else just make up your own religion and put the Bible away.

Your god hardened the heart of the Egyptian ruler so that he could lay down his ten curses and display his terrible power for the Israelis and Egyptians to see.

Quote:Exodus
4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
7:3-5 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
10:1-2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.
14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.

Another example, how about when Korah denied Moses was a prophet of your god?

Quote:Numbers
16:1-3 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men: And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
16:27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
16:31-35 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Let's test that out.

I deny Moses was a prophet.

Hmmmm, nothing happened. Perhaps your god is growing blind and unable to read. Here it is in larger letters:

I DENY MOSES WAS A PROPHET

Nothing happened. Strange.

In any event, your god is not the least bit subtle nor reserved when it comes to terrorizing people into obedience.

But all that was before Jesus, right? Yahweh changed after that point, right?

Quote:Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Your god is not subtle. Your god is not reticent to invoke fear or strike at the blasphemers and unbelievers.

Come on Yahweh, you pussy. Strike me dead now! I dare you! Did getting laid with Mary mellow you out? You growing old and weak? Come on, let me have it! Your devoted worshipers are watching! Screw the Holy Spirit! To Hell with Jesus! I've got some idols here! Did I mention I'm openly bi? What do I have to do to inspire the wrath you showed during "Biblical times"?

...

Anytime, Yahweh, you pussy! Strike me dead! Have the earth swallow me! Bring down your column of fire!

...

We're waiting!





Not much of a god you've got there.

(October 9, 2013 at 6:44 am)Rational AKD Wrote: maybe you should listen for a change. if naturalism is true, evolution is driven for the need to survive. discerning truth is not necessarily the most beneficial to survival, therefore many of our reasoning skills would not necessarily discern truth as we would like to think. if that is the case, we can't trust any of our reasoning skills to discern truth.

The reason I'm having such difficulty is your argument is very obtuse, relying on a lot of assumptions and makes use of spurious conclusions.

...and this is as good as "proof" gets for Christianity's extraordinary claims.

First of all, as I keep saying, I don't think you've adequately proved your assertion that paranoia is beneficial for survival. Just because some scholar argued for it doesn't make it so. He could be wrong.

Second, even if we grant that assertion, that doesn't mean pursuit of the truth might not have also evolved as a neutral trait or as a trait that wasn't weeded out successfully by natural selection. There might, by this hypothesis, be a paranoid side of us that we've bred for survival but we can suppress this in our pursuit of the truth.

Third, and most importantly, you've spuriously concluded that because our reasoning isn't perfect, we have to throw up our hands and say we'll never know what's true or not so why bother; let's all just embrace solipsism.

For example, Sir Issac Newton believed in a lot of crazy things like alchemy. That doesn't mean we throw out his findings in the field of physics. Science doesn't care about all the stuff you got wrong. You could believe in a thousand crazy things and yet make a single breakthrough discovery that can be proven by not just thought experiments and mental constructs (*poke*) but repeatable testing and hard evidence. Science will just ignore the 1,000 crazy things you've said and remember only the one breakthrough.

The logical fallacy at the core of your argument is called "poisoning the well". It's where someone or some source of information is discredited on one subject and so you conclude that everything that comes from that source must be wrong or flawed. The reality is that a broken clock is still right twice a day. Even if our sense of reason were flawed, that doesn't mean we can't prove anything.

And that's where evidence comes into play.