So it couldn't have been decided by the founding fathers that they simply wanted to set-up a secular state - regardless of what any given religion said, notwithstanding Jesus support for a fascist dictatorship?

(October 10, 2013 at 6:23 am)max-greece Wrote: So it couldn't have been decided by the founding fathers that they simply wanted to set-up a secular state

I'm not saying they were deliberately following Christs teachings but they still came from a Christian culture, post reformation era. Had they come from an Islamic culture you can be sure things would have been a little different. Christianity is fully secular society friendly there's no theocratic political agenda inherent within it, all that had to be bolted on as something extra. If you want to see what Jesus had to say about ruling elitist religious authorities you can read it for yourself.

Quote:- regardless of what any given religion said, notwithstanding Jesus support for a fascist dictatorship?

The only thing Jesus supported was God and humanities relationship with God through himself, he didn't support any human political or theocratic systems. By maintaining the separation of Church and state the US has set something up that would be closer to the ideal of what he taught. It necessarily a more "atheistic" foundation as it leaves people free worship God as they wish, and under these conditions Christianity has thrived away. If you want to stifle Christianity then state run churches such as those in Europe seem to do the job.

Yeah this sounds a lot like bullshit. Especially how the beginning of the article talks about the discovery of "ancient confessions" but towards the end of the article it seem apparent that he got these confessions from reading between the lines (hardly an actual confession). Lets take some excerpts out of the article and give them a good look-see.

Quote:Atwill's most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying "Wars of the Jews" by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. "I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts," he recounts. "Although it's been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar."

First off, lets take into account the his most intriguing discovery is a vague "sequence of parallels"/"sequence of events" that has somehow escaped every other theologian/biblical scholar/historian for the past 2,000 years. And he calls those vague parallels "clear evidence." Caution lights flash in my head.

Quote:How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played."

By the way, did you know if you played Stairway to Heaven backwards there is a Satanic message. How could this go unnoticed in one of the most played songs of all time? Well it's because many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, Satan did not want the average believer to hear what he was doing, but he did want the alert listener to hear it. An educated Satanist in the ruling class would have recognized the musical game being played.

......Just thought you should know about that "clear evidence" when you play the song backwards.

Quote:Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

Puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations? Oh...my.....Flying Spaghetti Monster! Quick! Someone call Nicolas Cage! I smell another National Treasure movie!

On a serious note though, why would the Roman government be proud of Jesus Christ? If what Atwill says is true, when they first created this fake religion the idea was to just get some Jews to calm down. They couldn't have had any idea that their fake religion would explode to the massive one it is today. So why would they allude to something that at the time, wasn't really a big deal? Why would the want credit for something that was in reality completely miniscule during their lifetime?

---

And then there is the website. First off the fact that there is a website about this specific "historical" topic seems sketchy. After all if I Google the Gulf of Tonkin, covertwar.com doesn't pop up at the top of my list. There are however links to educational sources about the topic. But anyways, lets go to the home page:

" By maintaining the separation of Church and state the US has set something up that would be closer to the ideal of what he taught. "

And there was me thinking it was closer to the democratic ideal that the Greeks came up with 400 years before Jesus was (or was not) borne.

So where did Jesus make reference to a democracy - or more specifically a Republic?

will the religious finally answer us and prove their religion right by showing us their transitional apostles ??

(October 10, 2013 at 8:41 am)max-greece Wrote: And there was me thinking it was closer to the democratic ideal that the Greeks came up with 400 years before Jesus was (or was not) borne.

Christianity incorporated much of ancient Greek philosophy anyway it's a continuation of the same Western civilization. The Romans brought in a theocratic system with the divine authority of the emperor though that pre-dated their adoption of Christianity so that's where we got that baggage from not from the gospels or Christ himself.

Quote:So where did Jesus make reference to a democracy - or more specifically a Republic?

He criticizes earthly religious authorities as hypocrites and would often flout Jewish laws and customs. I don't think he could have made his stance any clearer. He was no supporter of theocratic authoritarianism but a supporter of freedom in relationship to God directly. And the US is closer to that ideal religion having in power in the state authority it's a matter for the people individually.

``Christianity incorporated much of ancient Greek philosophy anyway it's a continuation of the same Western civilization.``

nope it didnt ..

and jeebus never critisised anything becouse he never existed.

(October 10, 2013 at 8:57 am)daandaan Wrote: nope it didnt ..

It most certainly did, Aristotle, Plato and much else of classical thought that was seen to be compatible with the Christian God.

Quote:and jeebus never critisised anything becouse he never existed.

We have as much evidence for his existence as many other historical people we take as having existed. The real question is his divinity and relationship to God not his existence.

(October 10, 2013 at 5:54 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(October 9, 2013 at 9:43 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Would that it were. Unfortunately, as $cientology, 9/11 Truthers and Moon Hoax Believers demonstrate, people are often desperate enough to cling onto anything that appeals to their sense of self-aggrandisement and desire to belong to some exclusive in-crowd.

An exclusive in-crowd like atheism? It's worth pointing out that not all (or even the greater majority of people) who believe in God or a greater purpose in the universe are even Christians anyway. It's possible for people to have a genuine belief and be wrong and this applies to atheists just as much as everyone else.

Since atheism is, ideally, the emancipation of people from the shackles of dogmatic belief, then no it's not an exclusive in-crowd. You're quite correct that a person's belief is as likely to be wrong as right; that's why I and many others endeavour to ensure that such beliefs as we choose to have are as correct as we can possibly make them, not merely adopted out of hand and against all evidence to the contrary.

(October 10, 2013 at 5:54 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

Quote:As a for instance, consider how many people will tell you that the USA was founded as a xtain nation and as evidence toss you the 'One Nation Under God' thing. Then do a little digging and find out how recent a tradition that actually is.

By keeping Church and state separate you could say they were following Christs teaching of rendering to Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods. Christianity was never intended to be some kind of a theocracy.

Read what I said again, presented here for your convenience. You answered a point I didn't make while missing the one I did.

(October 10, 2013 at 9:10 am)Stimbo Wrote: Since atheism is, ideally, the emancipation of people from the shackles of dogmatic belief

*coughs*

"Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

Point out where Jesus states anyone should be chained to the shackles of dogmatic belief. Atheism is the dogmatic belief you're chained to.

Quote:then no it's not an exclusive in-crowd. You're quite correct that a person's belief is as likely to be wrong as right; that's why I and many others endeavour to ensure that such beliefs as we choose to have are as correct as we can possibly make them

You're not being very correct if God exists so you're still potentially making a blinder of an error there if he does and you're dismissing him out of hand. Sure a lot of people in the world will be wrong about something and we can't be sure exactly who that will be or what they will be wrong about but don't just assume you have the right idea.

Quote: not merely adopted out of hand and against all evidence to the contrary.

Are you sure about that? I'm under the impression that's what most atheists are essentially doing.

Quote:Read what I said again, presented here for your convenience. You answered a point I didn't make while missing the one I did.

I agree that it was founded as a secular nation but I pointed out that Christianity isn't against secularism in the freedom of religion sense. So it's still a very good Christian foundation in the spirit of what Jesus taught.