(November 4, 2013 at 5:57 pm)Chuck Wrote:

(November 4, 2013 at 5:46 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I think we already had this conversation before.
You think its stupid, but look at the Jews. Even after all these years, they somewhat managed to put their shit back together and create a country out of a mandate populated mainly by non-jews.
This is what nationalism is capable of.

Evolution doesn't care what survivors identify with. It cares only about how many survive.

Based on what happened to the Jews through the centuries, it is almost certain many, many more descendants of those who had been jews 2000 years ago would have been alive today if along the line they had losened their identification with their ethnical heritage.

So as a result of the sort of ancester identification you worship, the ancesters of modern jews had become big time losers in the game that ultimately makes a mockery of human fads and sensibilities - evolutionary survival.

Well we're not talking about evolution, we're talking about something else.
And frankly, I don't think that any Jews would have been left if they had losened their identification, by which you mean, like assimilating into others, which would have removed the Jewish people from the face of the earth, as they have been practically never the majority in any place since their dispersion by the Romans. As in such cases, some people who have weak identities lose themselves and become the part of others, vanishing, meaning, if they were to do what you suggested, they would not exist as Jews today, they would exist as something else.

But as you don't care about things such as cultures, traditions, languages, identities, and anything that gives us a higher meaning in life, I guess its pointless to discuss Jewish national revival with you. As according to you, they were better off being absorbed in other peoples, as this would somewhat increase their "survival" or whatever.

Culture serves man, not man culture.

(November 4, 2013 at 6:50 pm)Chuck Wrote: Culture serves man, not man culture.

Well, only if you have a claim on it. And in order to have a claim, you must have had your part in its creation. And that is mostly done by blood or by doing an enormous contribution to it, which means, to serve it.

Bullshit. You have no more claim to a culture than you have claim to the air. It is the ambient environment in which you operate. You are as idiotic one who claims he is superior because the air he happen to have sucked into his lungs is superior.

(November 4, 2013 at 7:08 pm)Chuck Wrote: Bullshit. You have no more claim to a culture than you have claim to the air. It is the ambient environment in which you operate. You are as idiotic one who claims he is superior because the air he happen to have sucked into his lungs is superior.

I do have a claim on my culture by rights of ancestry, just as I have a claim on inheritance left to me by a dead relative.
Besides, even dead people can make this claim by simply proving their existance, and that they had a distinctive culture that they had laid claim on previously when they were alive. For example, the currently non-existant people of Sumerians, now lay claim on the Sumerian culture from the earth that they're residing in. No one can take their culture away from them no matter how hard they try, unless they're Sumerians themselves.

(November 4, 2013 at 7:16 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(November 4, 2013 at 7:08 pm)Chuck Wrote: Bullshit. You have no more claim to a culture than you have claim to the air. It is the ambient environment in which you operate. You are as idiotic one who claims he is superior because the air he happen to have sucked into his lungs is superior.

I do have a claim on my culture by rights of ancestry, just as I have a claim on inheritance left to me by a dead relative.
Besides, even dead people can make this claim by simply proving their existance, and that they had a distinctive culture that they had laid claim on previously when they were alive. For example, the currently non-existant people of Sumerians, now lay claim on the Sumerian culture from the earth that they're residing in. No one can take their culture away from them no matter how hard they try, unless they're Sumerians themselves.

NO you don't, NONE OF US DO, 1 million years from now if we still exist as a species, the boarders will have changed, the land will have changed, and our species may evolve to have different features that make us look different than we are now.

Evolution does not have the ability to care where you are from or what your race and religion or national background is. It's only goal is to make babies.

To make better babies. Always adapting, ever changing. Hopefully. Makes me wonder how evolution of humans has been affected by religion in the last 5-7k years.

(November 4, 2013 at 7:52 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 4, 2013 at 7:16 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I do have a claim on my culture by rights of ancestry, just as I have a claim on inheritance left to me by a dead relative.
Besides, even dead people can make this claim by simply proving their existance, and that they had a distinctive culture that they had laid claim on previously when they were alive. For example, the currently non-existant people of Sumerians, now lay claim on the Sumerian culture from the earth that they're residing in. No one can take their culture away from them no matter how hard they try, unless they're Sumerians themselves.

NO you don't, NONE OF US DO, 1 million years from now if we still exist as a species, the boarders will have changed, the land will have changed, and our species may evolve to have different features that make us look different than we are now.

Evolution does not have the ability to care where you are from or what your race and religion or national background is. It's only goal is to make babies.

Well, we do, and so do you. I have inherited a culture from my ancestors, and so did you. IT matters little if you profess to it or not, its still the culture of your ancestors, and by that name it will be hailed aloud. I gave you an example, the Sumerians, a people that do not exist anymore, had a culture. And today, by translating their tablets, we know certain things about this culture, and we call it by the name of its creators, the Sumerians. The Sumerians have the right to claim this culture as their own, as they spawned it. It's a dead culture but its a culture nonetheless, and is associated with a group of people, as it has always been, and as it always will be.

As for evolution, I don't think that this had anything to do with our discussion. Why you constantly bring it up is beyond me.

(November 5, 2013 at 6:17 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(November 4, 2013 at 7:52 pm)Brian37 Wrote: NO you don't, NONE OF US DO, 1 million years from now if we still exist as a species, the boarders will have changed, the land will have changed, and our species may evolve to have different features that make us look different than we are now.

Evolution does not have the ability to care where you are from or what your race and religion or national background is. It's only goal is to make babies.

Well, we do, and so do you. I have inherited a culture from my ancestors, and so did you. IT matters little if you profess to it or not, its still the culture of your ancestors, and by that name it will be hailed aloud. I gave you an example, the Sumerians, a people that do not exist anymore, had a culture. And today, by translating their tablets, we know certain things about this culture, and we call it by the name of its creators, the Sumerians. The Sumerians have the right to claim this culture as their own, as they spawned it. It's a dead culture but its a culture nonetheless, and is associated with a group of people, as it has always been, and as it always will be.

As for evolution, I don't think that this had anything to do with our discussion. Why you constantly bring it up is beyond me.

Quote:Well, we do, and so do you. I have inherited a culture from my ancestors, and so did you.

Our ancestors fucked, so? That only proves our ancestors fucked. Millions of sperm per male load, a second here or a second there and there might not have been a key hebrew or key gospel writer and someone else would have been born with and grew up with different ideas and a different superstition would have happened, or not happened.

You and I got lucky, that's it.

I was raised Catholic I am no longer Catholic, so please tell me how my parents religion is a requirement for me to live considering I gave it up 20 years ago.

"My culture", is bullshit, if that were a requirement to evolutionary survival then people could not mate physically outside their race/religion or nationality. People marry outside their race and religion all the time.

Quote:Our ancestors fucked, so? That only proves our ancestors fucked. Millions of sperm per male load, a second here or a second there and there might not have been a key hebrew or key gospel writer and someone else would have been born with and grew up with different ideas and a different superstition would have happened, or not happened.

Wow, you're either really dense, or you just can't comprehend the concept of inheritance.

Quote:You and I got lucky, that's it.

No, its not luck, really.
There is no way that I could have been born anything than what I am today. If so, I wouldn't be me, I'd be someone else. It's not luck, its simply the way it works. If you're the offspring of Frenchmen, there is no way you can be born as Chinese. So naturally, you won't speak Chinese, and you won't have a grasp of their culture and traditions from an early age.

Quote:I was raised Catholic I am no longer Catholic, so please tell me how my parents religion is a requirement for me to live considering I gave it up 20 years ago.

Religion today is a different issue, since todays major world religions revolve around universal and international concepts.

Quote:"My culture", is bullshit, if that were a requirement to evolutionary survival then people could not mate physically outside their race/religion or nationality. People marry outside their race and religion all the time.

Okay, if you don't like your culture, you don't like it. But its still yours, not mine.
And well, there are people that marry outside of their race and religion. But the majority of the people still prefer to marry of their own kin and their own culture and their own language and traditions, simply for the sake of maintaining the cultural homogeneity and harmony of the family that they will have. I personally choose to do so, since I do not wish my children and my grandchildren to assimilate into another culture in the future. I wish my children to inherit the culture, language and customs, and foremost of all, the identity of my people. Why is that so hard to understand? And as I said before, who had said anything about evolution?

Its not just about mating or having children, I see a grand purpose in the conception of children, as they are the next generation, and they are the future to what I consider to be the values and identity I inherited from my parents and grandparents, so I marry amongst my own so that the values and the indentity can be passed on with less complications, and will pass on to the generation that they will give rise to.
For that purpose, it is important that I marry someone of the same culture, same language, same identity, and therefore, the same blood as I am.
Its not that I can't go and marry a foreigner. But I simply see no real purpose in doing so.