(November 7, 2013 at 7:14 pm)Zazzy Wrote:

(November 7, 2013 at 6:22 pm)plaincents822 Wrote: We are an oppressed group though. Again we are so oppressed that we don't have the option most of the time to say we are without facing ridicule.

Well, if this is the world you see around you, I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but it's a different planet than the place I live in. Good luck with that.

Quote:But the right that men are really fighting for is just the right to say how we feel. Like I said, we can't even say that we feel oppressed without it becoming a debate

I don't see anyone anywhere telling men what they can and cannot say- this sounds suspiciously like being pissed off when people disagree with what you say. If you don't want to be seen as a whiner, then don't whine.

Quote:Personally, I think the main reason for this is because we used to be the oppressors. But we are not anymore and have not for a few generations, save for a few assholes.

And you wonder why people may react badly to your viewpoint? This is one of the most asinine statements I've ever seen on this forum. Again, good luck with winning the hearts and minds of women with this.

This is exactly what I am talking about. I gave you a few good examples and instead of responding to any of them you dismissed them and said I am living on another planet. I have no problem when people disagree with me, what I do have a problem with is people disagreeing with me, dismissing me, calling me delusional, a whiner and asinine, and without so much as a response to the topics I brought up.

Do you not see how this is the very problem I am talking about? How men are simply dismissed if we decided to bring up anything about how we may be treated unfairly.

And what is so offensive about that statement really? I said we used to be the oppressors but we are not anymore (at least in Western culture).

(November 8, 2013 at 10:29 am)plaincents822 Wrote: This is exactly what I am talking about. I gave you a few good examples and instead of responding to any of them you dismissed them and said I am living on another planet.

There are certainly areas of cultural bias against men- we agreed on several of them.
If you see this cultural bias as tilting toward men in such a way that they are a fundamentally oppressed group, you seem to be unaware of the world I live in. Who is oppressing all these men- sending them to war, causing them to work in mines, etc. Women? I don't think so. If you are oppressed, then you are oppressing yourselves. This is not women against men.

Quote: I have no problem when people disagree with me, what I do have a problem with is people disagreeing with me, dismissing me, calling me delusional, a whiner and asinine, and without so much as a response to the topics I brought up.

So you don't like how I disagreed with you. Your experience is so alien that I'm not sure we can see eye to eye. I didn't call you delusional, however.

Quote:Do you not see how this is the very problem I am talking about? How men are simply dismissed if we decided to bring up anything about how we may be treated unfairly.

I see that you don't like me saying you're full of it. I am not saying you can't express yourself. I'm saying you can't always expect to express yourself without some pushback, especially when you seem to be claiming that women as a group are oppressing men as a group- which IS an asinine claim.

Quote:And what is so offensive about that statement really? I said we used to be the oppressors but we are not anymore (at least in Western culture).

And you're dead wrong (although I appreciate your confining this to Western culture). Are men less oppressive than they used to be? Yes, and they're far more enlightened in the educated areas of the US. But if you're saying that men don't oppress women anymore, or that women have turned the tables and now oppress men, you're just wrong. Women should NOT turn a blind eye to inequities in media portrayals, or reproductive issues, or war issues. But they are not responsible for these as a group systematically trying to keep men down.

But it's not a competition anyway. Areas of inequality don't have to be equal in numbers to be wrong. 1 in 6 boys sexually assaulted is not as many as 1 in 4 girls, but it's still way too fucking many. And a vanishingly small percentage of those assaults are by women. MEN are abusing boys and men, as they abuse girls and women. MEN send men to war. MEN are predominantly judges who favor women in court decisions (30% of judges are women). Physician, heal thyself.

Again, part of any movement like this is learning how your own group is participating in its own subjection and rejecting those tendencies- like bra-burning.

Instead of bitching about how oppressive women are, think about how to fight the real oppressors in our world: culturally ingrained stereotypes set by a patriarchy that has no place in a modern culture that strives for equity, and people themselves who participate in and prop up these stereotypes, partly because it suits them, and partly because they're brainwashed. All of us do this, and all of us have a responsibility to re-educate ourselves and others around us.

Men are oppressed? What are you on about? There are inequalities for both genders, but to suggest that men are somehow oppressed is ridiculous

(November 8, 2013 at 12:21 pm)Zazzy Wrote: MEN send men to war.(partial quote)

I'm calling bullshit on that. I agree with pretty much everything else in your post, but I can't let that pass without comment. 
The notion that if the world was ruled by women then there would be no war is absolute shite. Even a brief web search will tell that.
Here's a brief list of female leaders that sent troops to war:

• Margaret thatcher
• Indira Gandhi
• Mary I of England
• Elizabeth I of England
• Isabella I of Castile
• Golda Meir

I think that'll do for now.

@ Zazzy

I think calling what powers that be a patriarchy is using incorrect terminology. The work denotes that it is a male hierarchy and it will only be run by males. Regardless of proportions females are in power. The real power behind inequality today is in fact money, corporate and political interests. I think very few males in power has this patriarchy in their minds. I also disagree that women are oppressed that much in the fields of reproduction. With the list of rights women have men barely have any (I am advocate against forced child support and alimony as it stand as is). With the expectations of Geographical locations rape is a crime that is typically punished if the rapist is caught it is an increasingly known fact and it is being addressed on the neurological and psychological level. Now I do not typically condone spot lighting data however a lot of physical crimes are committed by men. With that said, I think it still does not relieve women of crimes either regardless of frequency. That is just a slippery slope waiting to happen.

Other than I agree with you sentiment to an extent. I am for real equality, and I find calling it feminism or male rights pointless. What about we work together as partners to address these issues. All these labels do in the 21st century is divide into factions which is an observational fact, and this is even seen with the rise of misandry.

@ Optimistic Misanthrope:
Point taken. There have been some women warpigs. They're a minority, but they've been responsible for much conflict.
@bladevalant:
I have to think about your take on patriarchy. I don't think anyone consciously thinks they are propping up a patriarchy (with the exception of my horrible uncle and his ilk), but they are (WE are) aften doing just that. Women have been as guilty as men of supporting patriarchal ideas- feminism is largely about owning that responsibility and losing that mindset. Do we need a new word for it? Maybe. I still think every time you turn on the TV you can still see the old patriarchal archetypes at play (although we've added new ones that do portray men poorly as well).

I also don't believe that educated women of means are oppressed in the field of reproduction. I think any given man has fewer reproductive rights than I do. But it's a classist argument. Poor, uneducated women remain oppressed reproductively. And frankly, class is important in this entire discussion. If you want to see real old-fashioned patriarchy in action, visit some poor rural Southern areas. It's like the last 200 years never happened for many women there. Much of what we're discusssing here we're doing from a privileged vantage point.

I'd like to know what terminnology you think is more appropriate than "patriarchy," since it may, in educated circles, be a word whose time has come and gone.

*edited for spelling

What about Skylar? Does he have rights?

http://atheistforums.org/thread-21880.html

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/boy...03545.html

(November 8, 2013 at 1:16 pm)bladevalant546 Wrote: @ Zazzy

I think calling what powers that be a patriarchy is using incorrect terminology. The work denotes that it is a male hierarchy and it will only be run by males.

That is not what a patriarchy is. The patriarchy is the institution of white male privilege. That doesn't mean that others will not exercise power in that institution but they will be subordinate to the cultural norms and tradition set forth that give white males privilege over othesr. In other words in a patriarchy; All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Quote: Regardless of proportions females are in power. The real power behind inequality today is in fact money, corporate and political interests.

That's right. In other words...the patriarchy. Capital, corporate and political interests are the very institutions that keep white male privilege afloat and inequality abounding. These things are part and parcel of the patriarchy.

Quote: With the list of rights women have men barely have any...

Would you care to enumerate that list of rights that women have and men don't?

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(November 8, 2013 at 5:47 am)_xenu_ Wrote: . Lesbians can be refreshing because with straight or bisexual women, I always have to wear a certain face.

I hope someday you will realize how horribly misogynistic that sounds.

@Zazzy
I'm sorry but your assertion that women are somehow less violent then men is bunk. While women do have lower violent crime statistics what I would invite you to do is talk to a local high school princple. My experience is that girls tend to as much as boys do. Infact when girls would fight, it had a tendency to get more viscious faster . The reason for that is because when men fight one on one there are rules your expected to adhere too.

Do you fuckers even read what was said in this thread about equality?