(November 6, 2013 at 9:32 pm)Polaris Wrote: Just because one form of a religion was not involved, does not mean another form did not take its place....cult of personality is not a religion in the truest sense (though it can be argued that it is itself a form of religion), but many atheists have fallen victim to it. Just look at North Korea for example.

Are you implying that atheism is a cult of personality with a god-like dictator leading us all? Like Dawkins? Because if you are suggesting that, you would be very wrong

(November 6, 2013 at 10:07 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(November 6, 2013 at 9:32 pm)Polaris Wrote: Just because one form of a religion was not involved, does not mean another form did not take its place....cult of personality is not a religion in the truest sense (though it can be argued that it is itself a form of religion), but many atheists have fallen victim to it. Just look at North Korea for example.

Are you implying that atheism is a cult of personality with a god-like dictator leading us all? Like Dawkins? Because if you are suggesting that, you would be very wrong

Well it really depends on the atheist. Many have allowed atheism to become just that....they replaced one religion for pretty much another one.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Tomorrow, Richard Dawkins could renounce atheism, say he's seen the light and he was a fool for not believing. And see what that does to atheism and atheists. The answer would be: nothing. Every atheist gets there on their own. Mainly through observing the evidence, not blindly following a leader. Granted, a lot of atheists do like Richard Dawkins and listen to what he says but that's only because he provides so much evidence against religion and the existence of deities. If he converted to christianity tomorrow, it would have no effect on atheists at all, except to piss us off.

(November 9, 2013 at 3:59 pm)Rationalman Wrote: I'm sorry but you are wrong. Tomorrow, Richard Dawkins could renounce atheism, say he's seen the light and he was a fool for not believing. And see what that does to atheism and atheists. The answer would be: nothing. Every atheist gets there on their own. Mainly through observing the evidence, not blindly following a leader. Granted, a lot of atheists do like Richard Dawkins and listen to what he says but that's only because he provides so much evidence against religion and the existence of deities. If he converted to christianity tomorrow, it would have no effect on atheists at all, except to piss us off.

Sorry, but I was talking about North Korea...

(November 9, 2013 at 1:39 pm)Polaris Wrote: Well it really depends on the atheist. Many have allowed atheism to become just that....they replaced one religion for pretty much another one.

No you were not talking about North Korea

(November 9, 2013 at 9:32 pm)Rationalman Wrote:

(November 9, 2013 at 1:39 pm)Polaris Wrote: Well it really depends on the atheist. Many have allowed atheism to become just that....they replaced one religion for pretty much another one.

No you were not talking about North Korea

(November 6, 2013 at 9:32 pm)Polaris Wrote:

(November 6, 2013 at 9:24 pm)Rationalman Wrote: Non-religious reasons has nothing to do with atheism. In order to back up what you are saying, you would have to prove that atheism was the motivation behind killing all these people. You have to prove that they killed them because there is no god. Just because religion was not involved does not mean atheism was involved.

Well, if I had to prove that atheism was such a motivation, then I would have to call into question most of the wars attributed to Christianity and Islam.

Just because one form of a religion was not involved, does not mean another form did not take its place....cult of personality is not a religion in the truest sense (though it can be argued that it is itself a form of religion), but many atheists have fallen victim to it. Just look at North Korea for example.

(November 9, 2013 at 8:52 pm)Polaris Wrote: Sorry, but I was talking about North Korea...

North Korea is ruled by the spoiled brat descendants of a revolutionary who ran his country into the ground by preferring maintaining an all-encompassing cult of personality to actually feeding his people. Atheism is the least of their problems.

(November 12, 2013 at 8:37 pm)Polaris Wrote: Just because one form of a religion was not involved, does not mean another form did not take its place....cult of personality is not a religion in the truest sense (though it can be argued that it is itself a form of religion), but many atheists have fallen victim to it. Just look at North Korea for example.

Oh, I do look at North Korea. I look at it quite a bit when Christians try to point in its direction to state it is an atheistic nation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea...im_Il-sung

Quote:An example of this can be seen in the description of Kim Il-sung as a god, and Kim Jong-il as the son of a god or "Sun of the Nation", evoking the father-son imagery of Christianity ... There is even widespread belief that Kim-il Sung was an "almighty spirit" that "created the world" and that Kim Jong-il controlled the weather and performed miracles such as healing the blind and sick, which also mirrors Christianity. ... Over the course of his life he was granted many titles of esteem such as "Sun", "Great Chairman", "Heavenly Leader" and others. ... His place of birth has also become a place of pilgrimage. ... After his death he was referred to as the "Eternal President." ... it is alleged that Kim Jong-il was born on Mount Paektu at his father's secret base in 1942 (his actual birth was in 1941 in the Soviet Union) and that his birth was heralded by a swallow, caused winter to change to spring, a star to illuminate the sky, and a double rainbow spontaneously appeared. (Heretic notes: Gee, sounds awfully messianic, doesn't it?) ... After his death, the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) said that layers of ice ruptured with an unprecedentedly loud crack at Chon Lake on Mount Paektu and a snowstorm with strong winds hit the area. (Heretic notes: Even more messianic, eh?) ... A political paper by his son, Kim Jong-un, sought to solidify his father as the "Eternal General Secretary of our Party." ... Kim Jong-suk (Kim Jong-il's mother) is described as “a revolutionary immortal" ...

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche#.22Gr....22_theory

Quote:The "Great Leader" is also a flawless human being, who never commits mistakes, who is always benevolent and always rules for the masses. The leader is incorruptible. For the "Great Leader" system to function, a unitary ideological system has to be in place. (Heretic notes: This all sounds very much like the Christian God and Jesus, are you noticing that?) In North Korea that unitary ideological system is known as the "Ten Principles for a Monolithic Ideological System". (Heretic notes: Ten Commandments, much...?)

There's links aplenty on that page to go into more detail. But it's awfully strange, is it not, how I can look through the history of North Korea's rise of personality cults, and see a striking similarity to every other fanatical religion in existence?

Just for good measure, we're gonna look at this and see what parallels we can draw between the North Korean cult of personality of the Kim lineage, and, say, the cult of the Christ-figure. Bolding is my interjections.

[quote]The theory turns the "Great Leader" into a absolutist, supreme leader. God is all, none are equal to or before God, God is All, etc. The working class is not to think for themselves, but instead to think through the "Great Leader". God gave us free will, the ability to think; only by God's grace and through God's will as it was done are we able to think for ourselves. The "Great Leader" is the "topbrain" of the working class, meaning that he is the only legitimate representative of the working class. There is only one God, and no others; all other gods are false before him, for he is the one, true, eternal lord of all creation. Class struggle can only be realized through the "Great Leader", and difficult tasks in general and revolutionary changes can only be introduced through, and by, the "Great Leader". Armageddon, the day of judgment, the apocalypse, jihad, God graces he who comes out the victor, etc. Thus, in historical development, it is the "Great Leader" which is the leading force of the working class. God created man; he is the Great Leader of man, who are the proletariat under him.

Worshiping a man as if he were a god is no different than worshiping a never-present entity as if it were a god, except at least you have some kind of basis for the bullshit, even if it's fragile and conspicuously constructed of fabrication, laws, embellishments, and exaggeration...

Seriously, this whole thing grew during the latter stages of the 20th century. All of the rituals and celebrations and holidays and memorials and iconography and on and on and on sounds REALLY similar, if not ENTIRELY similar, to Christianity in all of its forms, Judaism in many, and Islam as well, along with the various cargo cults, pseudo-scientific religions, and UFO religions.

Certain individuals can go ahead and call the people worshiping a dead person as a god "atheists" all they want, but no matter how much you might call an apple a pear, the apple's still an apple, and it's always gonna be one.

As for "not a religion in the truest sense," well, religion is defined as the worship of a god, or gods. In the case of other examples, they may not be necessarily called gods, these men of personality cults, but they are certainly venerated as such all the same. A bloodbath by any other name smells as coppery... The Kim family of North Korea, however, is all but worshiped as gods, men who transcend into superhuman elevation of omnipresence and guiding influence from beyond the grave. Sounds kinda god-like to me - and certainly messianic regardless. I know the idea of messiahs and the like are not being discussed, but given as messiahs and religions are all but entirely intertwined...

Now, as for the people being dictated over, it's worth noting that they are not really atheists who came to their own conclusions, if indeed you wish to call them atheists. They are individuals who have been born into a world where the "great leader" is the object of absolute veneration, responsible for everything good, and responsible for preventing strife that they would otherwise be facing.

Honestly I have a hard time calling cults of personalities anything but religions. The only thing they lack is a supernatural entity and even then sometimes the object of veneration seriously tempts that distinction, if it doesn't outright toss it out the window. The leaders of these groups, these objects of veneration, may or may not have been/are/were atheists, but that's not exactly the point, here.

The point is more that any kind of mass-indoctrination, even if it's atheistic, is simply wrong and an absolutely apathetic disregard to any idea or notion of individual rights, freedoms, and/or expressions. Indoctrination is indoctrination. Worship of a man, god, idol, whatever, is still worship. A cult of personality is a religion no matter how you slice it. Hell, Christianity is a cult. Islam is a cult. Any practice of devotion and veneration towards a figure or individual or object is a cult.

Just as atheist is a term that can be broadly applied to anyone who does not believe in a god or gods, cultist is a term that can be broadly applied to anyone who has any object of devotion, worship, adulation, adoration, and/or veneration, and I for one won't really bust my balls to really make the distinction anymore. Henceforth, I'm not calling theists by that title, I'm just simply going to call them cultists along with those who are more "traditionally" called cultists, and I will be including the so-called atheists of North Korea in this terminology, too.

So naturally, Polaris, my question to you is: There is a god you can witness here on earth, and he rules North Korea, and he readily demonstrates his will upon tens of millions actively every single day.

Why aren't you worshiping him?

How anyone can think anything other than Islam is beyond me. Suicide bombings are a tiny part of what is wrong with Islam. How about women's rights, how about wide spread riots AGAINST the freedom of speech? How about the enslavement of domestic workers in Saudi Arabia or the frequent acid attacks against unfavored wives in Pakistan? How about the frequent death threats and assassinations against authors and artists by Muslims in the western world or using death as a punishment for apostasy, homosexuality and atheism that is common in the Islamic world? Like I said, suicide bombing is a tiny tiny part of what is wrong with Islam. that the Tamil Tigers are also shitheads doesn't mean anything about Islam and how fucking shitty it is for the world.

(November 4, 2013 at 8:01 pm)Gooders1002 Wrote: What do you think the most dangerous religion and why?

The religion of towels, its so hot it goes boom, mmmm