(November 18, 2013 at 9:23 am)Zazzy Wrote: Whoever did this study should be whipped and mocked for the impossibility of the study design, anyway. There are too many uncontrolled variables. Did all the praying people pray in exactly the same way, for the same length of time, with the same passion and commitment? How could you ever know this? Did they make absolutely sure that nobody else was praying for any of these people?

It's a terribly flawed idea that you could study this adequately. The only useful part is the psych component. If I did an experiment with this many holes in its design, I would not have any newspapers talking about it. Worthless bunk.

EXACTLY, thank you.

That's what I always say about prayer studies. It's so embarrassing, it's like trying to be "scientific" about something that's based completely on belief but ending up doing something that relies completely on your belief that the people told to pray actually prayed for the right people. And did not sneak in a prayer or two for the ones they're not supposed to pray for. Or that they prayed at all and were not just in it for the money. And that the family members of those who were in control groups did not pray for their loved ones. Or someone was just making a blanket prayer for all those who're sick. I mean, come on.

But, that said, I read somewhere (or possibly heard from an unreliable source) that those who know they were being prayed for perform worse because they feel like they are letting people down if they do not recover. And the same phenomenon is observed in people undergoing chemo, they feel like they're letting their families down if they don't do better, so that puts a strain on their recovery. Of course would have to read the paper in detail to actually know if this effect is observed and a different and better study design is needed to properly study this effect.

Brian37 Wrote:It works like a placebo.

You give too much credit, Brian. I would have said "it works like a potato".

(November 18, 2013 at 6:09 pm)Walking Void Wrote:

Brian37 Wrote:It works like a placebo.

You give too much credit, Brian. I would have said "it works like a potato".

No, potatoes have proven benefits.

(November 18, 2013 at 5:48 pm)Walking Void Wrote:

Jacob(smooth) Wrote:Just gave you one. Bereaved person.

Well I was hoping for a category of cases instead of an individual case like You mentioned about the widow, but I will make do.

Jacob(smooth) Wrote:Would you say that a prayer for comfort for a grieving widow, vulnerable and raised in the tradition, MIGHT achieve that purpose? Of making her feel a bit better?

Breaking it down:

Z Prayer of intercession

Y Goal = comfort

X Target = Grieving widow

W State of X = "vulnerable", "traditional"

Structure = {Y for X
X is W
Z is the action plan for Y}

To start off, are We inferring that "traditional" implies that X is religious (christian, even)? If so, I call sample bias. Why not any old widow who is grieving? If not, We move on. Now see to the acts leading up to Y. That would be Z. Let us suggest that Z accomplishes Y. Success.

Now, these are my concerns:

1... Was Z the only possible action plan to accomplish Y?

2... Does W influence the success of Z?

No and yes...

(November 18, 2013 at 6:10 pm)Beccs Wrote:

(November 18, 2013 at 6:09 pm)Walking Void Wrote: You give too much credit, Brian. I would have said "it works like a potato".

No, potatoes have proven benefits.

When You devour it. When You put it in the ground. When You peel their skin off. When You load them into cannons...

Sorry, too dark? :S

(November 18, 2013 at 6:08 pm)Zazzy Wrote:

Jacob(smooth) Wrote:Would you say that a prayer for comfort for a grieving widow, vulnerable and raised in the tradition, MIGHT achieve that purpose? Of making her feel a bit better?

But prayer won't do a damned thing to actually help her. You could SAY you're going to pray for her and not do it, and it would have as much effect. Or you could say what I say, which is "you will be in my thoughts," which would probably comfort her as much. Or you could go get the old girl's groceries or mow her lawn or spend some time with her, which would actually be helpful to her in her bereavement.

If someone want to pray for someone, OK. That isn't offensive, to think and hope and wish for better times. Everyone does that. What is offensive is the idea that it can in and of itself do something useful. It sounds like Jacob doesn't really think prayer is a line to his god's ear (true, Jacob, or am I misreading?). If that's the case, then he's doing what we're ALL doing sometimes: hoping and wishing. If he wants to direct those hopes and wishes at his god, who can say that's a bad thing? Some people write it down and start it with "dear Diary." What matters about this distinction to an outside observer?

Ah, that just clicked. Sorry. I was thinking in terms of prayer done in person. I don't agree that it won't do anything to help her.

As to a line to Gods ear, I don't know. I suspect not.

Quote:Just gave you one. Bereaved person.

What are you praying for? Their loved one to come back to life? Or that they get over their grief...which will happen in any case as time passes. I guess that's a safe "prayer?" Sort of like praying that the sun comes up in the morning.

(November 18, 2013 at 6:22 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: No and yes...

Go on...

Well, the mind is a powerful force and if you believe that prayer will help you, it probably will. However, I wouldn't expect better results than what you would get from a sugar pill.

(November 18, 2013 at 6:26 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Ah, that just clicked. Sorry. I was thinking in terms of prayer done in person. I don't agree that it won't do anything to help her.

You think it will help more than merely comforting her? I agree this would be helpful to someone raised in that tradition. Just not as helpful as mowing the lawn and spending time with her Can you elaborate?

Quote:As to a line to Gods ear, I don't know. I suspect not.

Good to know. Why bother, then, other than directing your hopes and wishes to someone? Wouldn't "dear Diary" be as effective, in that case?