(November 19, 2013 at 9:39 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 19, 2013 at 9:31 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: If I want to make someone feel better, I might give them a hug. They feel better, the hug worked.

If I want to make a Christian feel better I might pray with them. They feel better, the prayer worked.

Thus, because there are circumstances where the prayer can have the desired effect, (work) it's untrue to say prayer does not work.

This gets into tricky territory, though. If prayer works in the same way that a hug would, or a comforting talk would, or a helping hand would, then it isn't prayer that works; it is human empathy or sympathy put into action. In other words, if you visit the bereaved person and say a prayer with her the positive effect may not be from the prayer, but from the companionship and the resulting feeling that she is not alone.

It could well be that in that context a prayer works that way yes. But we're back into the realms of how it works.

Quote:Not exactly, more the immediate comfort aspect. Is it miraculous? No. Is it valid? Yes. Is it better than a secular hug? I don't know. Does that person feel better because they are deceived into thinking their loved one is with the giant sky Daddy and that gives them a sense of connection? Very possibly.

Theists waste a lot of time in an activity which seems genuinely worthless.

(November 19, 2013 at 11:09 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: It could well be that in that context a prayer works that way yes. But we're back into the realms of how it works.

What I mean is that those examples indicate that it's something other than prayer that is working. In that case there is the risk that the next time the person is in need, she will pray and those prayers go unanswered. She could do what many theists do and claim that the prayer was answered in some way she cannot fathom, but I wonder if there isn't some part of her subconscious mind that starts to make a troubling connection: prayer only reliably works whenever she takes the steps to make it work. In which case she can take those steps and get what she needs without bothering to pray. Which could mean that... -gasp-

I guess the atheist replies make sense if you exclude the part about "Thy will be done." Prayer brings you into conformance with Him not Him with you.

@OP

You're assuming all Christians think that prayer is supposed to be intercessory petition for God to alter his Divine plan. I've known Christians who didn't hold to this view.

Thank You Raven for appreciating science.

(November 19, 2013 at 12:48 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 19, 2013 at 11:09 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: It could well be that in that context a prayer works that way yes. But we're back into the realms of how it works.

What I mean is that those examples indicate that it's something other than prayer that is working. In that case there is the risk that the next time the person is in need, she will pray and those prayers go unanswered. She could do what many theists do and claim that the prayer was answered in some way she cannot fathom, but I wonder if there isn't some part of her subconscious mind that starts to make a troubling connection: prayer only reliably works whenever she takes the steps to make it work. In which case she can take those steps and get what she needs without bothering to pray. Which could mean that... -gasp-

Other things besides prayer also work? That prayer works because it includes other activities?

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(November 19, 2013 at 11:13 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Not exactly, more the immediate comfort aspect. Is it miraculous? No. Is it valid? Yes. Is it better than a secular hug? I don't know. Does that person feel better because they are deceived into thinking their loved one is with the giant sky Daddy and that gives them a sense of connection? Very possibly.

Theists waste a lot of time in an activity which seems genuinely worthless.

Yep. It's our time. I also sometimes sing in the car. That's another waste of time which makes me feel good.

(November 19, 2013 at 11:13 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Not exactly, more the immediate comfort aspect. Is it miraculous? No. Is it valid? Yes. Is it better than a secular hug? I don't know. Does that person feel better because they are deceived into thinking their loved one is with the giant sky Daddy and that gives them a sense of connection? Very possibly.

Theists waste a lot of time in an activity which seems genuinely worthless.

Yes, but even as an atheist I still think and "hope" for things that don't transpire, like the Redskins not sucking, and people appreciating ABBA like I do.

But at least when I waste my time I know I have no tin foil hat or magic bat phone to some sky pixy that will make the Redskins Superbowl champs or make the world love ABBA.

(November 19, 2013 at 5:57 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 19, 2013 at 11:13 am)Minimalist Wrote: Theists waste a lot of time in an activity which seems genuinely worthless.

Yes, but even as an atheist I still think and "hope" for things that don't transpire, like the Redskins not sucking, and people appreciating ABBA like I do.

But at least when I waste my time I know I have no tin foil hat or magic bat phone to some sky pixy that will make the Redskins Superbowl champs or make the world love ABBA.

Abba. Seriously?!

Yeah, the above makes you a more rational and thoughtful person, more likely to assess what you do and improve it to get better results (and no that's not sarcasm) Aside from the Abba thing. Which really doesn't.


Hey guys, I know I said I wouldn't tell anyone here they are going to hell but could I have this one? PLEEEEEASE

common sense Wrote:Prayer does not work

No shit!