(December 26, 2013 at 3:39 pm)Ksa Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 3:33 pm)agapelove Wrote: • Could not accept the claims made by religious people or their “holy” books

I, Atheist, accept the claims of Jesus Christ, when he said he was not God, like he says in the gospel of John chapter number 14 verse number 28 "My father is greater than I", gospel of John chapter number 10 verse 29 "my father is greater than all", gospel of Matthew chapter number 12 verse number 28 "I cast out devils with the spirit of God", gospel of Luke chapter number 11 verse number 20 "I with the finger of God cast out devils", gospel of John, chapter number 5 verse number 30, "I by myself can do NOTHING".

As I hear, I judge, and my judgement is just, for I seek not my will but the will of my father. What do you not understand?

Hey KSA

This is a question which actually confuses a lot of Christians, which is why did Jesus appear to make statements that pointed to him being a man who was completely dependent on His Father? The answer is, because He was a man who was completely dependent on His Father! Allow me to explain:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We see that the Word was in the beginning with God, and was God. Who is this Word? It was Jesus:

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

We see that God took on human flesh by becoming man and dwelt with us. He was not just human in appearance:

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

He suffered the same weaknesses and afflictions that we do, yet He never succumbed to them. So was He no longer God?:

Philippians 2:5-8 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

When the eternal Son of God became a man, He emptied Himself of all of His divine privileges and lived exactly as a man would live. His entire ministry was not done through His own power, but through the power of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

So that is why you see Jesus making statements like this:

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

While Jesus never ceased being God, He put that aside to live as a man before God the Father, who was now His God as well as His Father. His relationship with God the Father had changed because He had now permanently incorporated the human nature into His being and was now permanently subordinated to God the Father. He voluntarily, eternally, took a lower position for our sake, although that doesn't mean He is any less God. It just means that in the Kingdom of God there is a heirarchy in the Trinity:

1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

I hope that helps!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is plagiarism! It has no religious value. These are NOT the words of Jesus. Who's words? JOHN! Where did John copy those from? Philo of Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born. So you can't accept these words as the words of God, or the words of John or Jesus, they are the words of a jerk-off! So, once a thief, always a thief, the words of John are nil.

(December 26, 2013 at 7:24 am)agapelove Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 7:05 am)Ivy Wrote: Say someone... pfffff, any random atheist, not calling out anyone... converted to Christianity. How did this happen? Anybody else... er, I mean anybody here been there, done that?

I confess I'm skeptical to this. First thing to pop into my head is that this is just another fundie trying to save souls by fitting in then sticking the hook down the throat.
Granted I could be wrong. Show me.

Since this topic just coincidently appeared, I suppose I will give my testimony. First off, I don't expect anyone to be convinced by what I am going to say. Most likely you'll think I had some kind of psychotic break, and that's okay, so long as you think I'm crazy in a good way. My journey is actually atheism to new age to christianity, by the way

Well, I was raised secular and the subject of God was never brought up in my home. All I really knew about Christianity is what I heard on television, so my knowledge of Christianity was pretty poor at this point. In my late 20s I started to have supernatural experiences. At that point I started to believe there was a spiritual reality and I began to pursue different religions and philosophies. A few years down the road I started to experience things which led me to believe there is an all powerful God controlling everything.

On that basis I believed in the all purpose God of love you hear about the new age. I didn't know anything about Jesus at this point. It took several years of exploring basically everything that I finally read the bible. On the basis of some revelation I had received prior to reading the bible, I began to believe the bible was Gods revelation to mankind. This is when I started to seriously consider that Jesus is the Messiah. After a few years of searching that out, I became convinced that He is the Messiah, and is still alive. That's when I became a Christian.

I can imagine what any rationalist might think when reading this, because it is utterly irrational on the worlds terms. You could call it a psychotic break, or confirmation bias, or any number of things. What I can testify to is the change in my life because I am a completely different person now. I am not problem free, but, I used to be depressed and now I am happy. I used to have a lot of fear and now I am at peace. I used to be addicted to many things and now I am sober. I used to use the internet too much..and I still use the internet too much. You get the picture..

So that's my story and I am sticking to it.

Actually, that is one of the most plausible conversion stories from atheist to Christian that I've ever heard.

Of course, I don't interpret your experiences the same way, but I'll certainly take your word that you experienced them.

Please provide us with evidence, not that you saw a sword in a field -.-;

Sorry I took so long to reply. I went to sleep at 4AM and woke up really, really late. I have been having a lot of things going on and sleeping has not been one of them. I finally got some.

After reading your responses, it strikes me as odd the way you do it as though you did not know how most atheists think about Bible proof. I know my sister so well. I know her like the palm of my hand. If she asked me to explain math, I would not explain it by talking about the problem in hand, but I'd show her visuals. I'm atheist and it does nothing for me when you respond with the Bible. I couldn't care less what Jesus said. I know not all atheists are atheists by having done their research, used logic and reason, etc., but rather never started believing in a god in the first place. I know not all atheists think the same, but I still have not met one atheist that would read a Bible verse and say, "Oh! Now I get it! This explains everything!"

Anyway, on to the things about your response that really made my brain itch.

1. Supernatural experiences: How were they supernatural? What you explained sounds like an elation, euphoria, inspiration. You went from atheist to Christian because of something supernatural that you experienced, so this must have been very convincing. Something that left a skeptical mind with zero arguments. What was it?

2. Why Christ? Chad says that people lean towards the god that is common where they live (or something to the effect, sorry, I might be wrong in what he meant), but this is not enough when you go from atheist to Christian. If you were atheist, you dismissed any god as existent. What made you say, "There is a god and it's this one,"?

Thank you for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

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I hadn't read the new Age thing yet... I was busy typing. You can fit that right into your response, lol.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:12 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Please provide us with evidence, not that you saw a sword in a field -.-;

That it the evidence. It is the job of the prophet to give identity to god.

Hmm. Agape was not raised to believe, but neither did she 'think her way' out of her previous beliefs. She was more like a blank slate regarding supernatural beliefs than a committed rationalist. I don't think she has the same standards of evidence we've derived. I find her conversion more plausible for that reason. A rational skeptic would seek alternative explanations for their experiences, but agape may well have accepted them at face value.

This is why I think it important to teach critical thinking and unimportant to teach atheism. A conclusion you reach for yourself is...better.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: After reading your responses, it strikes me as odd the way you do it as though you did not know how most atheists think about Bible proof. I know my sister so well. I know her like the palm of my hand. If she asked me to explain math, I would not explain it by talking about the problem in hand, but I'd show her visuals. I'm atheist and it does nothing for me when you respond with the Bible. I couldn't care less what Jesus said. I know not all atheists are atheists by having done their research, used logic and reason, etc., but rather never started believing in a god in the first place. I know not all atheists think the same, but I still have not met one atheist that would read a Bible verse and say, "Oh! Now I get it! This explains everything!"

Sister, if you go write an exam then the teacher fails you without reading a word of what you wrote in your copy saying "I don't believe she can pass", will you get mad or happy? Is your teacher logical or illogical?

Besides, Christians and Muslims also couldn't care less about what you say, unless? Unless you talk about their scripture. If they say, my scripture is right, and then you say your scripture is wrong, and everyone stops there without proving the scripture wrong or right, there is no communication.

So might as well put them on ignore like Nineteen and not talk to them. But of course, we respect our Christian and Muslim brothers and we have to show to them, from their scripture that they are on the wrong path. If you say I don't care about your Bible or about your Qur'an, they stop listening to you. So there is no communication.

(December 26, 2013 at 4:08 pm)Ksa Wrote: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Is plagiarism! It has no religious value. These are NOT the words of Jesus. Who's words? JOHN! Where did John copy those from? Philo of Alexandria, who had written them even before John and Jesus were born. So you can't accept these words as the words of God, or the words of John or Jesus, they are the words of a jerk-off! So, once a thief, always a thief, the words of John are nil.

Could you give a citation that it was stolen please? Remember that John was writing in Greek and so he was using their vocabulary to communicate these ideas. There is currently no reason to doubt his eye witness testimony is sincere, and you'll find a lot of what we understand about historical figures comes from eye witness testimony. You might want to check out this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_...eliability

Let's say for arguments sake that the text is reliable. Is the counter argument not a plausible explanation for the apparent contradiction? If not, why not?

(December 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Ivy Wrote: 1. Supernatural experiences: How were they supernatural? What you explained sounds like an elation, euphoria, inspiration. You went from atheist to Christian because of something supernatural that you experienced, so this must have been very convincing. Something that left a skeptical mind with zero arguments. What was it?

2. Why Christ? Chad says that people lean towards the god that is common where they live (or something to the effect, sorry, I might be wrong in what he meant), but this is not enough when you go from atheist to Christian. If you were atheist, you dismissed any god as existent. What made you say, "There is a god and it's this one,"?

Thank you for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

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I hadn't read the new Age thing yet... I was busy typing. You can fit that right into your response, lol.

She was an atheist because she hadn't been taught to believe in God, not because she was a freethinker.