(December 27, 2013 at 12:04 am)agapelove Wrote: Let me ask you this: If Jesus is the real deal, would you want to know? Would you be willing to step out on a limb and pray for that information? If not, why not?

I always find it strange when, as an atheist, I'm told to pray to get the evidence I require, because generally speaking that suggestion is configured in some strange ways. First of all, I'd say that one only has reason to pray if they're expecting an answer, and hence an atheist, looking for evidence of a god, has no reason to pray in the first place. This is because prayer, and all the personal experience excuses that come bundled with it, aren't evidence or information at all; becoming convinced in your head that something is real doesn't constitute a cogent argument. It's just being convinced of something; and you already know this, because you discount the prayers of anyone who isn't praying to your god as mistaken, don't you? Those guys are equally convinced that their prayers are a method of communing with gods you don't think exist; why would you think an atheist would be compelled to consider your god the special exemption to that, sufficient to pray to it in the first place?

(December 27, 2013 at 2:55 am)Esquilax Wrote: I always find it strange when, as an atheist, I'm told to pray to get the evidence I require, because generally speaking that suggestion is configured in some strange ways. First of all, I'd say that one only has reason to pray if they're expecting an answer, and hence an atheist, looking for evidence of a god, has no reason to pray in the first place. This is because prayer, and all the personal experience excuses that come bundled with it, aren't evidence or information at all; becoming convinced in your head that something is real doesn't constitute a cogent argument. It's just being convinced of something; and you already know this, because you discount the prayers of anyone who isn't praying to your god as mistaken, don't you? Those guys are equally convinced that their prayers are a method of communing with gods you don't think exist; why would you think an atheist would be compelled to consider your god the special exemption to that, sufficient to pray to it in the first place?

I can understand your position; why should you pray to Jesus and not the flying spaghetti monster? I think it's an interesting question because I believe there are compelling reasons to consider praying to Jesus above and beyond any other religious claim.

So, why pray to Jesus? Well, one evidence is that what Jesus said about Himself is reflected in the world today. We can see that there has never been anyone more famous and influential on the world than Jesus. He has influenced this planet more than any other person by a wide margin. If you could only pick one name as to who has been the prime mover of the last 2000 years, it would be Jesus Christ. That fact alone makes His words worth considering. Our entire historical perspective turns over a manger in Bethlehem. If Jesus is who He said He is, we should expect to see that kind of influence over world history. So, I think that in itself bears testing the waters by saying a short prayer.

To answer the question of why pray to Jesus in the first place, the answer is that this is the only method which is guaranteed any results. It is the only method Jesus recommended we undertake to reach Him. So, if you are looking for evidence that Jesus is God, this is the best way to investigate it. There is really no other method that is worth considering because it is the only method which could possibly work.

I can understand if anyone disagrees with what I've said..I am sure you could poke holes in it if you tried. But as far as risk/reward goes, it doesn't get any better than that. There is no risk and infinite reward. If it isn't true nothing will happen. But if it is true He will let you know it.

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(December 27, 2013 at 12:45 am)Ksa Wrote: It was addressed to his disciples, not to you. Not to the reader of the Bible. Imagine I tell my mother "turn off the cooler please." and someone writes down what I told my mother and goes to my workplace in a nuclear station and says "Ksa said to turn off the cooler", so they disable the cooling system and the reactor explodes.

Those words of Jesus were not addressed to a guy in 2013 with a high IQ, they were addressed to an IDIOT from 2,000 years ago who couldn't understand what Jesus was saying.

The reason the disciples couldn't understand what Jesus was saying is because they hadn't yet received the Holy Spirit. You'll notice that after they receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 they are preaching sermons and no longer confused about what Jesus was talking about. His words are for all people at all times:

John 17:20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

He was praying for all believers in all times, those who would believe in Jesus through the word they preached, which He had given them. He even told us directly what He was talking about when He explained his parables in Mark 4 and other places. He gave us words that everyone could understand, yet they are deeper than anyone has ever found out. That is the multifaceted nature of His teaching. What do you make of this verse?

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

(December 27, 2013 at 12:04 am)agapelove Wrote: The experiences were not just transcendent love, peace and joy but also things which happen in the world. I started to experience numerous coincidences until it seemed they were not coincidences but deliberate orchestrations. For instance, going across country and meeting the same two people a thousand miles away at the same place and time when they didn't know eachother, weren't traveling your route, and were actually headed in two completely different directions. Needing a certain amount of money and having someone slip you the exact amount anonymously when you hadn't told anyone. Needing certain items and having people come out of the woodwork to give them to you. Having one leg that was shorter than the other grown out to be even with the other leg. Dreaming about something and then having it repeated to you by people multiple times. Studying something specific and having it repeated to you by people multiple times. Things of that nature.

Honestly, studying something and having people repeat it to you must be the lamest of the bunch. That happens all the time. All of the things you've mentioned are not that moving.

Quote:I couldn't really begin to describe how many of these things have happened. Individually you might write some of them off, but taken together they add up to a chain of evidence of the actions of an all powerful God. Not absolute proof but they certainly helped me to see that God is in control. Looking back on my life I can clearly see that the amazing things I had written off as coincidence were the hand of God over my life.

So by your own admission, this is the argument from ignorance. You don't know how/why, therefore god.

Quote:The revelation was about the triune nature of God. I kept getting signs about God being 3 in 1 (literally hundreds and hundreds of times) but I didn't get it until I read the bible. The signs were usually in numbers, like 333, and I could feel God showing me something about Himself, but I didn't get it until I read the bible.

Sorry if I missed anyone else!

Numbers and signs. That has confirmation bias written all over it. So this convinced you that it wasn't just god, it was the god of the bible? That's it? Come on, the bible talks about thousands of things and the fact that you see a lot of 3s makes all of them true?

Let me tell you something, my grandparents are buddhists. Not the hippie type, the other type. And my grandfather had a dream where guanying (one of the ones they pray to) came and gave him lottery numbers. He bought the numbers and won.

The reason none of these are good enough evidence is because plenty of these things have happened to people of other religions which sucked them deeper into their religions. The obvious conclusion, and also the one that assumes the least, is that all of these are coincidences. You cannot conclude that all gods are real because that is not evidence of gods' existences, and that is assuming way too much. For those who conclude that, well that did not happen to me, therefore it's irrelevant to the my truth; they are just ignoring evidence and pretending that something like god's existence is a personal thing, it isn't, it should be a universal truth.

Another question, if you don't mind. I understand how you were convinced of god's existence. What convinced you to worship him? I cannot really think of anything that can convince me to worship someone unless with the threat of hell.[/quote]

(December 27, 2013 at 4:42 am)agapelove Wrote: I can understand your position; why should you pray to Jesus and not the flying spaghetti monster? I think it's an interesting question because I believe there are compelling reasons to consider praying to Jesus above and beyond any other religious claim.

That's a part of my question, but the rest of it was, why pray at all, given that prayer has only a specifically religious purpose and I'd have no reason to do it before I believe in the entity I'm praying to? See, if I were to pray right now and get no answer, the standard religious response is either that I wasn't doing it sincerely- which would be absolutely correct, because how can I sincerely talk to a being I don't think exists?- or that god's response isn't necessarily the one I expect, in which case, how could I be sure it was a response from god at all?

Quote:So, why pray to Jesus? Well, one evidence is that what Jesus said about Himself is reflected in the world today. We can see that there has never been anyone more famous and influential on the world than Jesus. He has influenced this planet more than any other person by a wide margin. If you could only pick one name as to who has been the prime mover of the last 2000 years, it would be Jesus Christ. That fact alone makes His words worth considering. Our entire historical perspective turns over a manger in Bethlehem. If Jesus is who He said He is, we should expect to see that kind of influence over world history. So, I think that in itself bears testing the waters by saying a short prayer.

I'm going to be really very polite and not swear like I usually would, but this is actually dead wrong; from a historical perspective we can't even confirm that Jesus existed, let alone said any of the things he said, but even ignoring that, much of what Jesus was purported to have said was said by others that predate him.

But there's another important thing you're missing, which is that the majority of the world is not Christian, and therefore their historical perspectives don't factor him into it at all. Even accepting your premise, the influence of Christ isn't as widespread as you'd like us to believe.

Quote:To answer the question of why pray to Jesus in the first place, the answer is that this is the only method which is guaranteed any results. It is the only method Jesus recommended we undertake to reach Him. So, if you are looking for evidence that Jesus is God, this is the best way to investigate it. There is really no other method that is worth considering because it is the only method which could possibly work.

Here's a study: performed by a religious organization, this study shows that prayer has no more efficacy than chance, and in fact makes people worse off when they know they're being prayed for.

Quote:I can understand if anyone disagrees with what I've said..I am sure you could poke holes in it if you tried. But as far as risk/reward goes, it doesn't get any better than that. There is no risk and infinite reward. If it isn't true nothing will happen. But if it is true He will let you know it.

Um, really? You're going to end on Pascal's Wager? Okay, lemme get out my debunking kit...

So, first of all, there isn't no risk: just in terms of material consequences, you've wasted time in church, money on tithing, mental energy thinking about something that doesn't exist, and possibly more, depending on the stripe of christian you are. In terms of the other risks, you're also risking infinite punishment if one of the other religions turns out to be the right one and you've been praying to the wrong god. Just saying.

(December 26, 2013 at 5:07 pm)agapelove Wrote: It's an interesting question. Yes, I think it was possible for Him to sin in human weakness in the sense that it says he was tempted in every way, and suffered the same kind of afflictions. Tempted means he was being swayed to do it; it wouldn't have been a real temptation without the possibility I think. Satan tempted him to take the easy way out and assume control of the world right then and there; all He would have had to do was worship Satan and he could have avoided the cross.

If he had sinned then no one could be saved, I think; it would have also made God a liar since He promised a Savior. Yet, I don't think God would have sent His Son if He didn't know he was going to succeed and overcome every temptation. So, while it may have been possible, in a sense it wasn't because God already knew the future.

Most other theists (who answered the question) responded similarly, and I probably would have when I was a believer. Though the responses usually are along the lines of "he couldn't really have failed." The situation brings up some important questions that I think the believer has to ask himself.

Did god rig the game? Jesus became flesh so that he could trade one perfect human life for another (the one that Adam lost). He became flesh that he might better understand our frailty (per Paul's writing). So if he knew he would not give in to temptation, then there was no risk of failure as there is for a frail human, and god played a game of Russian Roulette where he knew there was no round in the chamber.

And that's actually the better option, since the other option would be to risk failure and the possible consequences if Jesus had transgressed even once. With the only hope of salvation lost, humanity would face a future of despair, with no hope of ever recovering the gifts given by god and lost by Adam before any of us had a chance to make the choice ourselves. At this point, what does god do? Wipe everything out? He would need to acknowledge that creation was not "good" and that he had gotten it wrong and that Satan may have been right!

Think about it. Why bother to set up that scenario? It either risked failure, which put the fate of all creation on a roll of the dice. Or it could not have failed at all, in which case it was an exercise in pure vanity, god reminding us that there was still one being in the universe who couldn't screw up something as simple as "do this, don't do this." None of those options gives us god as we envision him if we are a believer. Not easy to reconcile without handwaving or admitting that there's a lot we can't know about the situation until such time as god clears it up, if he ever chooses to.

(December 26, 2013 at 3:33 pm)agapelove Wrote:

(December 26, 2013 at 11:58 am)Strongbad Wrote: *opens can*

So when you were an atheist, you:

• Believed that ALL religions were contrived by men, and ALL were works of fiction
• Could not accept the claims made by religious people or their “holy” books
• Believed that religious people, of all “faiths” were misguided at best, and delusional at worst
• Believed that physical reality was all that there was, and stories of “creation”, deities, spirits, angels, demons, souls, etc., were merely fantasies

And then somehow you became convinced that Christianity was no longer to be grouped as a falsehood with all other religions, because it is actually the one religion that is true. That the god you now “believe in” is actually real, and that he really did create the universe, and that he really does rule over it. That angels, demons, spirits, etc., are factually real. And that after your death you will be resurrected and you will live forever in the presence of this god.

For some reason, I don’t believe you were ever an atheist, and I think you are making that claim as some lame attempt at an appeal to authority. I say bullshit.*returns can to shelf*

Hello there,

I'm getting close to 40 years old so I would say I am getting middle aged and not very young anymore, unfortunately. You are saying you don't believe I was ever an atheist because you don't see how any true atheist could ever come to a belief in God? It happens all the time. Here are a couple of lists of more well known people who converted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_con..._nontheism
http://www.ranker.com/list/former-atheis...s-atheists

A famous example is Anthony Flew, who was actually a very preeminent atheist for most of his life. I don't know if he ever became a Christian but he was at least a theist. You could also try plugging in "ex atheist" into youtube to find testimonies.

I am tempted to drudge up the no true scotsman fallacy on you, strongbad. I was a genuine atheist; organically grown in fact. You could make the same argument the other way, that those who converted from Christianity to atheism didn't really understand what they believed and were simply coasting by on their faith of their parents. Or that their conversion experience is rooted in conditions and emotions rather than reason, in things like bad treatment they received at church, the hypocritical actions of family members, a rebellion against authority, or being lured by the pleasures of sin. Before anyone gets offended, please know that I am not making any judgments about any of you, or how you arrived at your nontheism. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt about what they say they did or did not believe. I am just saying that the question can be raised on both sides for those who have converted from one to the other.

I didn't believe in the supernatural because I saw no evidence for it. All that I heard about the supernatural were reports that seemed to contradict one another, or seemed implausible or contrived. Like most human beings, I changed my mind when I had personal experience. The bible clarifies all of this by saying first that, all knowledge of God comes by personal revelation and not necessarily through empirical evidence. God may use empirical evidence but He will also have to give the revelation to correctly interpret that evidence. Such as that it is impossible for me to demonstrate that God exists to you unless God has also revealed it to you. You will simply never believe it without that personal revelation. God did not completely reveal that to me until my late 20s going into my 30s so just because you have not yet received that revelation necessary, doesn't mean you will not in the future.

And you must be ready to receive said revelation.. Though that does not seem to apply to the Saul to Paul type of conversion.

Jesus Christ: the most influential person in the last 2000 years? Hardly. What about the guy who discovered electricity?, the inventor of the TV?, inventor of the computer?, inventor of the internet? Nelson Mandella? He did much more to abolish racism than dear old JC.

(December 27, 2013 at 2:55 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(December 27, 2013 at 12:04 am)agapelove Wrote: Let me ask you this: If Jesus is the real deal, would you want to know? Would you be willing to step out on a limb and pray for that information? If not, why not?

I always find it strange when, as an atheist, I'm told to pray to get the evidence I require, because generally speaking that suggestion is configured in some strange ways. First of all, I'd say that one only has reason to pray if they're expecting an answer, and hence an atheist, looking for evidence of a god, has no reason to pray in the first place. This is because prayer, and all the personal experience excuses that come bundled with it, aren't evidence or information at all; becoming convinced in your head that something is real doesn't constitute a cogent argument. It's just being convinced of something; and you already know this, because you discount the prayers of anyone who isn't praying to your god as mistaken, don't you? Those guys are equally convinced that their prayers are a method of communing with gods you don't think exist; why would you think an atheist would be compelled to consider your god the special exemption to that, sufficient to pray to it in the first place?

Well put.

My own, terser, version is:

If the only 'evidence' you have is locked up in your head and unavailable for objective evaluation, then you do not have evidence - you have belief.


Revelation? It's in your head, and is a delusion.
Prayer? It's in your head, and is an illusion.

(December 27, 2013 at 4:42 am)agapelove Wrote: I can understand if anyone disagrees with what I've said..I am sure you could poke holes in it if you tried. But as far as risk/reward goes, it doesn't get any better than that. There is no risk and infinite reward.

Seriously? Pascal's Wager?

No wonder you're a believer if you use arguments as flawed as Pascal's Wager.

Quote:If it isn't true nothing will happen. But if it is true He will let you know it.
ieve that you have sent me.

You act like none of us tried what you claim will get us answers.

Been there, done that.

Every single time I've told a Christian that I did try, I ALWAYS get the same responses, "you weren't sincere enough", "You didn't try long enough", "he did communicate with you, you just weren't ready to hear". etc, etc.

As soon as you can tell me how to differentiate between your claims and gullibility, let me know.

As soon as you can tell me how to differentiate between your claims that Jesus will answer me and the same claims made by many other religions regarding their gods, let me know.

(December 27, 2013 at 4:42 am)agapelove Wrote: John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Why the Jews did not understand matters not, what matters is that they didn't understand and that Jesus came up with those twisted phrases trying to fit their understanding.

For the last part, Jesus was in the mind of God and before he was born, God appointed him prophet of the nations! You remember what God told Jeremiah? What did God tell Jeremiah? I KNEW YOU! Before you entered your mother's womb.

So Jesus was glorified in the mind of God, God is energy...ok check, we were all in the mind of God before being born. I was in the mind of God, you were in the mind of God, Jesus was in the mind of God, Hitler was in the mind of God. Before being born, everyone bound by the spirit of God were in the mind of God and after they were born they were? SONS of God.

Where's the problem?