(January 4, 2014 at 6:58 am)Tonus Wrote:

(January 3, 2014 at 9:44 pm)RDK Wrote: If God knows the future then every action taken by men is also foreknown. What is prophecy anyway but God's affirmation to us that everything which could be known to happen will happen.

The future does not have to be predetermined for the biblical god to predict that certain things will happen. Since he is a powerful deity able to make people act as he wishes, he can direct circumstances as he pleases. So when the biblical god says "this will happen" the certainty of it is not that he looked ahead and read the next chapter. The certainty is from knowing that he can manipulate events to make sure that it will happen.

There, a simple explanation that allows for god to predict future events without being trapped by fate. Sure, it makes him manipulative and a bit creepy and brings up the question of why someone willing to meddle in people's affairs and take away their freedom on a whim would have required an elaborate plan to deal with the original sin. But those questions are easier to deal with that anything to do with the idea that the future is so static that it can be "read."

If there truly is a God running things, it certainly cannot be from a distance. Could God know what will happen five minutes from now? How about one hour, one year, thousands of years? We're talking about God's plan here, not His accident. If someone feels that his freedom has been lost, let me put it another way. If you are a part a a very grand scheme, that makes you a very important piece. There is no one out there exactly like you...you are unique. A robot you say, No way. If God has chosen to experience Himself through your life, why would you be dissapointed by that. If God did not plan every aspect of the activities of peoples lives ahead of time, He could not know the future. Some freewill thinker could come along and upset the plan.
Taken another way...God has stood up the dominoes in directions that we have no way of knowing. Those dominoes are us. The purpose of all this is us. God does not diminish your importance because your life has a plan which God has orchestrated. He shows us that the future has very specific results which He wants us to see. Nothing happens by chance. Everything is planned and in control. God is the maker and designer od everything. This should give you some comfort. You probably already know that free-will is not a Biblical concept. People feel that since they apparently make all of their own decisions, free will must be a fact.
Haven't you ever experienced a premonition or a feeling that something was going to happen to you in your future and it actually happens that way?
I get the idea that you feel that God just threw out a bunch of people out onto the earth to suffer and pain for no good reason? That would be cruel. Who could follow a God like that? If God is the designer, He also created the way that you would think, the personality which you alone have, the future thoughts that you will think.
Biblically speaking, Paul was troubled by this too. What if God made two pots; one to be filled with righteous things, and the other with things that would result in it needing to be destroyed?
It's not pots He is talking about here, but people. There are people here who do good things, and others whose things should be destroyed because they have no good value. God does not need to kill His own children. It's the bad stuff that He is needing to remove.

Oh FFS, what a quote mess, trying to fix it

(January 4, 2014 at 6:30 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote:

(January 4, 2014 at 1:47 am)RDK Wrote: People will pray as if God is responsible for everthing that they say. God users will do everthing in their power to get something for this outward show of faith.
Prayer is simply communication. It is not a party line for everyone to hear. The world is filled with phonies who want attention or want to make money off of something supernatural. If you desire to improve your life in any loving way, God will respond. Don't ask for material gain...you will not get it. You will receive the fastest answers if your prayers are requested for the benefit for others. Your own parents would not respond to you if you challenged them. Use some courtesy. He is the giver of love. If you lack in that department, give prayer a try.

Gobbledygook.

We have no reason to believe that your version of whatever god it is you worship (whatever a god is) is not just another phony with every other deity that has ever been forwarded.

Simply saying 'pray to get what you want', regardless of the parameters and stipulations placed on it, is a cop out. You're getting others to do the leg work when asked for evidence, and then using an attempt at emotional guilt by adhering to some erroneous assumptions about the characters of people you don't even know (you seem smart enough to work them out, I can't be bothered to dissect line by line).

Prayer is simply a way to allow you to think that your personal ego is speaking back to you. "God I want this, god my friends need help" blah blah. So trite. Such little foresight and disregard for others (how would those prayers impact indirectly on others through multiple regressions?) no but I suppose your version of god had it all figured right? Another cop out.

Nobody here will be impressed by your attestation. Got anything else? Like hard , verifiable evidence? If you don't, don't bother replying please , we have enough unsubstantiated claims on here from other theists already, thanks.

Are ideas valuable? Thay have no more tangibility than the electrons swirling about in my head. What If my idea could result in a new invention? Would you like it then? Since my ideas in somthing you can't immediately touch or experience you are trying to invalidate them.
We are dealing in useful concrete ideas with positive results in case you wish to implement them. Think outside the box. Because you have not seen it , it is not true?

edit.

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(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote:

(January 4, 2014 at 6:30 am)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Gobbledygook.

We have no reason to believe that your version of whatever god it is you worship (whatever a god is) is not just another phony with every other deity that has ever been forwarded.

Simply saying 'pray to get what you want', regardless of the parameters and stipulations placed on it, is a cop out. You're getting others to do the leg work when asked for evidence, and then using an attempt at emotional guilt by adhering to some erroneous assumptions about the characters of people you don't even know (you seem smart enough to work them out, I can't be bothered to dissect line by line).

Prayer is simply a way to allow you to think that your personal ego is speaking back to you. "God I want this, god my friends need help" blah blah. So trite. Such little foresight and disregard for others (how would those prayers impact indirectly on others through multiple regressions?) no but I suppose your version of god had it all figured right? Another cop out.

Nobody here will be impressed by your attestation. Got anything else? Like hard , verifiable evidence? If you don't, don't bother replying please , we have enough unsubstantiated claims on here from other theists already, thanks.

Are ideas valuable?

No, not always.

(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote: Thay have no more tangibility than the electrons swirling about in my head.

??????????????????????

Aside from the fact that, you know, electrons are tangible (or at least have direct tangible effects on the world we inhabit):| You need to re-think this point because it's silly.

(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote: What If my idea could result in a new invention? Would you like it then? Since my ideas in somthing you can't immediately touch or experience you are trying to invalidate them.

What idea? you haven't forwarded anything except unsubstantiated claims that are neither unique nor interesting. We've heard all of it before, and it's been debunked countless times before.

(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote: We are dealing in useful concrete ideas with positive results in case you wish to implement them. Think outside the box. Because you have not seen it , it is not true?

Gobbeldygook.

I don't believe you because you make up stuff as you go along. Or, rather, that's how everyone with the ability to utilise critical thought will see it because it's all just one large unsubstantiated claim.

sorry, if you want' to convince us that what you say is true, you need to adhere to our standards of evidence, which is to say, you need to present something more than an 'idea' (??), like something we can analyse and test.

And no, your statement "Because you have not seen it, it is not true" is a red herring and a purposeful attempt to sleight of hand me. I've never 'seen' a black hole, but I know they exist, because the data proves they do.

Praying to a non-descript, non-existent entity ain't nothing like no black hole.

EDIT: And actually, I'm pretty pissed with you for telling me to 'think outside the box'. What? You think that's what you're doing? Well shit, if making crap up is all it takes to make one think that's 'thinking outside the box', then I can go toe to toe with the best of them. I'm writing on an invisible gold laptop in my starship orbiting Rigel V. Lasers set to fun. I can go all day if you can.

People please be carefull with the quoting, It is a pain in the ass to fix jumbled quotes

(January 4, 2014 at 1:26 pm)LastPoet Wrote: People please be carefull with the quoting, It is a pain in the ass to fix jumbled quotes

Thank you very much LP, appreciate it.

That's an hour of my life I won't get back, it could've been just half an hour, but I accidently deleted the editing I was making the first time!

(January 4, 2014 at 12:47 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: edit.

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[quote='RDK' pid='576267' dateline='1388854001']

Are ideas valuable?

No, not always.

(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote: Thay have no more tangibility than the electrons swirling about in my head.

??????????????????????

Aside from the fact that, you know, electrons are tangible (or at least have direct tangible effects on the world we inhabit):| You need to re-think this point because it's silly.

(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote: What If my idea could result in a new invention? Would you like it then? Since my ideas in somthing you can't immediately touch or experience you are trying to invalidate them.

What idea? you haven't forwarded anything except unsubstantiated claims that are neither unique nor interesting. We've heard all of it before, and it's been debunked countless times before.

(January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm)RDK Wrote: We are dealing in useful concrete ideas with positive results in case you wish to implement them. Think outside the box. Because you have not seen it , it is not true?

Gobbeldygook.

I don't believe you because you make up stuff as you go along. Or, rather, that's how everyone with the ability to utilise critical thought will see it because it's all just one large unsubstantiated claim.

sorry, if you want' to convince us that what you say is true, you need to adhere to our standards of evidence, which is to say, you need to present something more than an 'idea' (??), like something we can analyse and test.

And no, your statement "Because you have not seen it, it is not true" is a red herring and a purposeful attempt to sleight of hand me. I've never 'seen' a black hole, but I know they exist, because the data proves they do.

Praying to a non-descript, non-existent entity ain't nothing like no black hole.

EDIT: And actually, I'm pretty pissed with you for telling me to 'think outside the box'. What? You think that's what you're doing? Well shit, if making crap up is all it takes to make one think that's 'thinking outside the box', then I can go toe to toe with the best of them. I'm writing on an invisible gold laptop in my starship orbiting Rigel V. Lasers set to fun. I can go all day if you can.
[/quot
RDK- It is hard for me understand what values you have. What do you think is important? I am offering you a way to connect to a wonderful source of knowledge that you don't believe even exist. I am sorry for your shortsightedness. I already know that science can define a lot of things. But it lacks the ability to give you the courage to step into the unknown. Reality has no limits!

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Here are some things that people do that are concepts of the heart that can't be analyzed as easily as a lab rat. Try friendship,courage,love,anger, hate. Are these ideas too abstract to believe so they should not be true. Every one of you have involved yourselves with these things. The difficulty comes when its time for you analyze your own. Concepts of the mind are not provable in a tangible way. They have to fit togeather in a logical way which brings you some useful conclusion. Don't dismiss all of this just because you do not understand what it all means. Ponder on some options and you will be surprised with what you find.

Jesus Christ! How can you mess up quotes so badly?!?!