(February 27, 2010 at 7:24 pm)Thor Wrote: Yes, very reasonable. Let's compare the two theories.

Abiogenesis: A scientific theory that postulates how living organisms could have arisen from inanimate matter.

Your theory: An invisible being created the universe and everything in it with a wave of his hand.

Which sounds reasonable and which sounds like something you'd tell a three year old?

There's no real proof of abiogenesis at the moment. I'm not even sure it counts as a "theory" in the scientific sense of the term.

Oh, and yes I am using a computer on Shabbat. -1 Jew point

(February 27, 2010 at 8:32 pm)Zen Badger Wrote:

(February 27, 2010 at 7:28 pm)Tsidkenu Wrote: And how do you explain the amazingly finely tuned universe to life ?

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Because Life has evolved to fit the universe.

Not the other way round.

without fine-tuning, our universe would not even exist. See the cosmological constant.

Uh-huh....and of course it's your silly 'god' who does all this fne tuning, I assume?[/u]

(February 27, 2010 at 10:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Uh-huh....and of course it's your silly 'god' who does all this fne tuning, I assume?[/u]

I believe so, yes.

Negative Jew point! oh no!

It is a fascinating argument, the origin of existence and life. I'm pretty sure (in my humble opinion) that this is all a ride. We are something far more than just skinny monkeys that can ponder, far greater than we've been led to believe. And yes, the Universe had to begin because nothing in this reality can be infinite. We are spirits trapped in human bodies, and unfortunately part of the process includes the fact that a human mind cannot remember or conceive of where the spirit came from. We will know for sure when we die, but until then I beleive.

Thank you.

I know you "believe" so. You probably "believe" that jesus came back from the dead, too.

Quote: If you do not believe in God as the best explanation for our existence, what other ( better ) explanation do you suggest ?

'As an atheist' I offer no explanation or alternatives whatsoever. I assert only "I do not believe' I have no burden of proof.That's because I make no claims and because I really don't care if you accept my position or not.

I haven no problem with saying "I don't know". I'm more concerned with the 'what' than the 'why'. Right now I'm alive and savour that fact. I was not for aeons, and will be gone again soon. That bothers me no at all,although the actual process of dying is unattractive to me.

One the other hand,you are in a very different position; As a Christian, you make all kinds of claims,and seem to care that others accept your personal superstitions. That means you have the burden of proof. To be blunt; pup up or shut up. (lots of luck with that; if you do, you will be the firsts person in recorded history to manage)

I never justify my belief nor argue with apologists because I truly do not care what they believe and most are incapable of critical thought when it comes to religion. Neither do I conflate winning an argument with being right necessarily.

Quote: If you could reason with religious people there wouldn't be any. (Greg House)

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I do however,explain a little from time to time:

I was brought up devout Catholic.I began to have serious doubts at 16. I left the Church at 20. It took another 20 years to become an atheist. The journey was painful,yet not a matter of choice.My questions had to be answered,yet I found no answers. Eventually I was forced to confront the inevitable conclusion; there is simply no evidence for the existence of god(s). That is THE issue for me, I am unable to go anywhere until I see such proof.

My world view is based on empiricism,rejecting the Neoplatonism which is the basis of Christian theology. Please note that I do not claim I am right and you are wrong,only that our views are very different. I am obliged to live as if mine are true until I see evidence to the contrary.

(February 27, 2010 at 10:21 pm)padraic Wrote: and seem to care that others accept your personal superstitions.

I care in the sense that i would like, that all human kind would accept God's offered forgiveness of sins.
But i do not try to convert anyone. If you do want to convert yourself, or not, is entirely your own business.

(February 27, 2010 at 10:21 pm)padraic Wrote: That means you have the burden of proof..

I cannot, and i do not want to prove anything, to anyone. The christian faith does not rely on proofs, otherwise it would not be faith anymore.

(February 27, 2010 at 10:21 pm)padraic Wrote: I never justify my belief nor argue with apologists because I truly do not care what they believe and most are incapable of critical thought when it comes to religion. Neither do I conflate winning an argument with being right necessarily.

I don't attribut critical thinking to atheists. Actually, the atheistic position is in my opinion the most irrational and senseless position someone can get.

(February 27, 2010 at 10:21 pm)padraic Wrote: there is simply no evidence for the existence of god(s). That is THE issue for me, I am unable to go anywhere until I see such proof.

it seems you change proofs with evidence. there are in fact no proofs for Gods existence. But there is our cosmos. Creation and all that exists. We are intelligent beings, and capable of analying and thinking about all that surrounds us. Based on that, we can come to different conclusions. And one of them is, that there must be a higher being, that created everything. So our cosmos IS evidence for God's existence, for the ones, that believe God is the best explanation for our existence. Others might think the oposit. But then, they must come up with a explanation, why they think a OTHER cause for all that exists is better than God. I am still waiting a atheist to come up with a better explanation. So far, i have not seen one.

(February 27, 2010 at 10:09 pm)Pippy Wrote: Negative Jew point! oh no!

It is a fascinating argument, the origin of existence and life. I'm pretty sure (in my humble opinion) that this is all a ride. We are something far more than just skinny monkeys that can ponder, far greater than we've been led to believe. And yes, the Universe had to begin because nothing in this reality can be infinite. We are spirits trapped in human bodies, and unfortunately part of the process includes the fact that a human mind cannot remember or conceive of where the spirit came from. We will know for sure when we die, but until then I beleive.

Thank you.

You make a lot of speculative claims.

"Nothing in this reality can be infinite". Why not?

"We are spirits trapped in human bodies, and unfortunately part of the process includes the fact that a human mind cannot remember or conceive of where the spirit came from." How did you come to this conclusion? Can't we be devoid of spirits and be rejoined with our spirits after we die? Howbout any other combination of highly improbable scenarios?

You believe something with no evidence supporting it. You don't find this to be a bit odd?

(February 27, 2010 at 10:09 pm)Pippy Wrote: And yes, the Universe had to begin because nothing in this reality can be infinite.

Causality, yup. With cause and effect the universe can't have either existed forever or have created itself, meaning there's some sort of "first-cause". Whether you believe it's a God is a different matter.