(January 16, 2014 at 9:48 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Or you can think of it as a relationship with someone who loves you who will never let you down or break up with you and this relationship is two way and eternal. If you were to forever turn your back on this relationship this would result in suffering in question as you would be missing something you need, the power of love and that business.

Except I'm perfectly capable of functioning without that relationship, and furthermore, the suffering I'd feel in hell isn't the result of an absence of something, but rather the addition of something god has introduced to my life that wasn't there before. God is the cause of my going to hell, not my protection from it; after all, he created the damn thing.

Quote:But that's the better way to see it anyway. The God atheists seem to reject is the same God Christians would for the most part reject. Muslims may be accepting that kind God to some extent though or at least I get that impression from it.

Too bad you refuse to look at your god objectively, then: you'd reject him if you did, apparently.

Quote:You have the choice of a relationship with God or you can refuse the invitation but God gives everyone the opportunity.

Just like the mugger gives us an opportunity to pay him so he doesn't stab us, yes. Is the mugger justified in stabbing us if we refuse?

(January 15, 2014 at 3:25 pm)truthBtold Wrote: Satan had free will and chose to rebel against god. Satan knew god, saw god, talked with god, and worked for god. He even made bets with god on torturing poor old Job! Why do christians say that if god showed himself people wouldnt have free will??

Freewill as you understand it is not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told we are slaves to sin with no completly independant will of our own. The only thing we have resembling free will is the ablity to choose whether or not we want redemption from sin which leads to an eternity with God.

So why doesn't God reveal Himself? Because it would destroy the point and purpose of this life. To be seperated from the known glory of God so we may demonstrate to ourselves where our hearts truly lie. Do we honestly want to be with God because we Love Him, or do we want to be with God because it benfits us somehow..

If God was known to be real, then it would be a sure bet that Hell was real as well. Then people would flock in droves to line up to go through the motions of Christianity. Which isn't the point of this life. Some of us are going to hell despite if we sit in church from this sunday to every sunday for the rest of our lives. Why? Because God is not a fool and will not be dupped into letting people into Heaven because of a perceived technicality they think they have found. Then they will spend there time in Hell wondering why they were sent there.

As it is in this life now, the qualities that marks a soul's worthyness for God/Eternal life are manifactured through the trials and hardships we endure. Apart of that is taking that faith of a mustard seed we have been given and using it as we have been instructed, which will eventually yield a great reward.

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meaning if we can establish and maintain a relationship with God, from the vacuum of proof and knoweledge of God's glory, then we can be assured of salvation.

There's actually a really good YouTube counter-apologetic video on this:

"Theistic Argument Against Apologetics"

(January 16, 2014 at 10:08 am)Drich Wrote: Freewill as you understand it is not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told we are slaves to sin with no completly independant will of our own. The only thing we have resembling free will is the ablity to choose whether or not we want redemption from sin which leads to an eternity with God.

So why doesn't God reveal Himself? Because it would destroy the point and purpose of this life. To be seperated from the known glory of God so we may demonstrate to ourselves where our hearts truly lie. Do we honestly want to be with God because we Love Him, or do we want to be with God because it benfits us somehow..

If God was known to be real, then it would be a sure bet that Hell was real as well. Then people would flock in droves to line up to go through the motions of Christianity. Which isn't the point of this life. Some of us are going to hell despite if we sit in church from this sunday to every sunday for the rest of our lives. Why? Because God is not a fool and will not be dupped into letting people into Heaven because of a perceived technicality they think they have found. Then they will spend there time in Hell wondering why they were sent there.

As it is in this life now, the qualities that marks a soul's worthyness for God/Eternal life are manifactured through the trials and hardships we endure. Apart of that is taking that faith of a mustard seed we have been given and using it as we have been instructed, which will eventually yield a great reward.

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meaning if we can establish and maintain a relationship with God, from the vacuum of proof and knoweledge of God's glory, then we can be assured of salvation.

Who's God? Oh yeah, that's right. Yours, for no apparently good reason. How does one love something that serves no discernible function, let alone lacks any properties of existence?

(January 16, 2014 at 10:08 am)Drich Wrote: Freewill as you understand it is not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told we are slaves to sin with no completly independant will of our own. The only thing we have resembling free will is the ablity to choose whether or not we want redemption from sin which leads to an eternity with God.

Drich, you are a complete moron. If you have no 'completely independent will of your own', saying you can 'choose' anything is a contradiction, because that necessarily indicates that things could have been otherwise. But you've already ruled that out in your OWN post.

Quote:So why doesn't God reveal Himself? Because it would destroy the point and purpose of this life. To be seperated from the known glory of God so we may demonstrate to ourselves where our hearts truly lie. Do we honestly want to be with God because we Love Him, or do we want to be with God because it benfits us somehow..

Well then, I wonder why he supposedly revealed himself to Moses and the other prophets, to the disciples trhough Jesus, and to Paul? Biblically, doesn't seem to have 'destroyed the point and purpose' of their lives.

And how would it even do that? And how can you claim God's glory is known? Further, if we wanted to be with God because we love him, that's STILL for our benefit: to get the love. And even if it were otherwise, why would it matter?

Quote:If God was known to be real, then it would be a sure bet that Hell was real as well. Then people would flock in droves to line up to go through the motions of Christianity. Which isn't the point of this life. Some of us are going to hell despite if we sit in church from this sunday to every sunday for the rest of our lives. Why? Because God is not a fool and will not be dupped into letting people into Heaven because of a perceived technicality they think they have found. Then they will spend there time in Hell wondering why they were sent there.

Okay Drich, you're describing the real world now. People already do that. If Hell was known to be real, the amount of people actually doing that would close to nil. After all, they KNOW it's real in that case.

Quote:As it is in this life now, the qualities that marks a soul's worthyness for God/Eternal life are manifactured through the trials and hardships we endure. Apart of that is taking that faith of a mustard seed we have been given and using it as we have been instructed, which will eventually yield a great reward.

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meaning if we can establish and maintain a relationship with God, from the vacuum of proof and knoweledge of God's glory, then we can be assured of salvation.

This is really just waffle here.

(January 16, 2014 at 8:04 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Also of course sex with voluntary consent would be rape which is something God would like to avoid, you have to be up for it.

Did Mary, mother of Jesus, have a choice? Did the Midianite girls have a choice? Did Lot?

if you think that the biblical god's above using rape as a social mechanism, you're very much mistaken.

(January 16, 2014 at 10:11 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: There's actually a really good YouTube counter-apologetic video on this:

"Theistic Argument Against Apologetics"

I completly agree, The primary arguement against Theology is the desire to not be held accountable to God's law, that way we can live any way we choose.

(January 16, 2014 at 10:27 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Did Mary, mother of Jesus, have a choice?

She was told before hand by the angel Gabriel and she seemed happy enough about it. There was no actual sex involved of course therefore no rape just the implantation of the divine essence of whatever it was that went on I don't think we can know.

Quote:Did the Midianite girls have a choice? Did Lot?

The Old Testament does demand that rapists be stoned to death it's not really pro rape. It does have rules on how to treat your women taken as war booty but I suppose it's better than just raping them and leaving them to die which they otherwise would have done. Women back then needed husbands to look after them and put a roof over their heads anyway so I imagine they would have opted to stay with their captors if they were treated well. By our own modern standards of behavior we would still furrow our brows at these passages of course.

The rape of Lot by his daughters wasn't meant to be a good thing it was an explanation for origins of these tribes of people in the area of the time that the Jews didn't really like, they were born through the abomination of incest. There is some tribal propaganda in there.

(January 16, 2014 at 10:23 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='584152' dateline='1389881305']
Freewill as you understand it is not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told we are slaves to sin with no completly independant will of our own. The only thing we have resembling free will is the ablity to choose whether or not we want redemption from sin which leads to an eternity with God.

Quote:Drich, you are a complete moron. If you have no 'completely independent will of your own', saying you can 'choose' anything is a contradiction, because that necessarily indicates that things could have been otherwise. But you've already ruled that out in your OWN post.

what does completely independant will mean in this context?
It means were are not allow to choose what ever we want, however it does not proclude all choice, Meaning we do have the ablity to choose something that we have been given over to choose from. Which if you took the time to read what i actually wrote you would have seen that, we have been given a choice. To remain in sin or to seek redemption from it.

Quote:Well then, I wonder why he supposedly revealed himself to Moses and the other prophets, to the disciples trhough Jesus, and to Paul? Biblically, doesn't seem to have 'destroyed the point and purpose' of their lives.

because their lives did not center around one choice, but to gather people and teach or prepare them of the choice they were given.

Quote:And how would it even do that? And how can you claim God's glory is known?

It is revealed to us Via the Holy Spirit when we Ask, Seek and knock for it as outlined by Luke 11...
-Or did you think I and people like me seek to spend their lives telling people about what they have found from a complete vacuum?

Quote: Further, if we wanted to be with God because we love him, that's STILL for our benefit: to get the love. And even if it were otherwise, why would it matter?

But when you truly love someone and do not get love in return do you stop loving them? If your child got sick and could not respond to you (could not get love in return from them) would you stop loving your child?

The trials we face sometimes makes us feel as if we are not high on the list of those in whom God loves, but it is those in whom God chasens that He loves the most. For it is the trials that push us to grow spiritually.

Quote:Okay Drich, you're describing the real world now. People already do that.

Indeed and they have from the time of Christ. That is why Jesus said this mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Many go through the motions of Christianity now, and yet they do not know God. How many more would be going through those motions if the threat and danger of hell were as real as the grand canyon? Like if you could goto a place and see your buddies suffer.. how many would go through the motions that really hated and resented God, just on the off chance they would save themselves?

Quote: If Hell was known to be real, the amount of people actually doing that would close to nil. After all, they KNOW it's real in that case.

I disagree, and history disagrees with you. Look at the dark ages, when as far as everyone knew Hell was real and look at the corruption that took place in the name of faith.. Evil men will be evil no matter the context. At least this way we can be honest with ourselves.

Quote:This is really just waffle here.

blueberry or plain?

Couldn't help but notice the offer you make in your signature, Drich. I've been looking into ordering a free bible and was wondering if you'd have a recommendation. The thing is, I'm a hairy guy and so I go through a lot of paper. I'm looking for something especially soft.