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Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
#1
Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
I posted this on reasonablefaith.org (I doubt it will even be approved by the moderator).  I figure I'd post it here as well.  I typically don't post on this forum because it's no fun when everyone agrees - I tend to post on the religious sites.  But I'd like to hear what people think as I haven't heard it before.  If others have said it, klet me know.


Something has always bothered me about Plantinga's Free Will defense regarding the 'Problem of Evil', which to me is the most devastating argument against a theological God.  Plantinga claims evil and a good/loving God can co-exist, as the enabling of free will requires evil and a greater moral good could result from such free will.  But such a rational is clearly contradicts Christianity.  Let's ignore the fact even the statement  itself invalidates God (it implies there are unchanging laws to which even God must subscribe to - ie, free will requires evil).  Just consider:

1) The Christian God has directly killed millions of people
2) He has ordered the killing of millions more
3) He aids his people with storms, plagues, and various other phenomena
4) He sends his Son to save people that otherwise would not be
5) He cures some diseases, raises the dead, feeds the hungry, and so forth
6) Heck, he EVEN makes sure there is enough wine at a party he attends

Clearly, the Christian God is WILLING and DOES violate the free will doctrine.  Plantinga's defense only makes sense as long as God NEVER interacts with the universe.  But according to the Bible and Christian theology, this happens constantly, even for something as simple as a party needing more wine.

Thus, although Plantinga's defense may be philosophical sound, it contradicts Christian theology - and therefore is invalid when used to defend Christianity.
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#2
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
Agreed that Platinga's defense only supports limited theism; some sort of creator that would like for us not to suffer but is unable to do that and have free will too; not a truly omnipotent being. Defenses of the God of Theodicy seem to always involve sawing one of the legs off the 'theodicy stool'. At least Platinga is willing to give up omnipotence instead of omnibenevolence.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#3
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
(January 16, 2020 at 4:21 am)mrj Wrote: I posted this on reasonablefaith.org (I doubt it will even be approved by the moderator).  I figure I'd post it here as well.  I typically don't post on this forum because it's no fun when everyone agrees - I tend to post on the religious sites.  But I'd like to hear what people think as I haven't heard it before.  If others have said it, klet me know.


Something has always bothered me about Plantinga's Free Will defense regarding the 'Problem of Evil', which to me is the most devastating argument against a theological God.  Plantinga claims evil and a good/loving God can co-exist, as the enabling of free will requires evil and a greater moral good could result from such free will.  But such a rational is clearly contradicts Christianity.  Let's ignore the fact even the statement  itself invalidates God (it implies there are unchanging laws to which even God must subscribe to - ie, free will requires evil).  Just consider:

1) The Christian God has directly killed millions of people
2) He has ordered the killing of millions more
3) He aids his people with storms, plagues, and various other phenomena
4) He sends his Son to save people that otherwise would not be
5) He cures some diseases, raises the dead, feeds the hungry, and so forth
6) Heck, he EVEN makes sure there is enough wine at a party he attends

Clearly, the Christian God is WILLING and DOES violate the free will doctrine.  Plantinga's defense only makes sense as long as God NEVER interacts with the universe.  But according to the Bible and Christian theology, this happens constantly, even for something as simple as a party needing more wine.

Thus, although Plantinga's defense may be philosophical sound, it contradicts Christian theology - and therefore is invalid when used to defend Christianity.
The devil went down to earth from heaven. He lives here and work through negative situations. The bible shows that. You have to understand why god "executes judgement" before making an opinion.
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#4
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
(January 16, 2020 at 4:21 am)mrj Wrote: I posted this on reasonablefaith.org (I doubt it will even be approved by the moderator).  I figure I'd post it here as well.  I typically don't post on this forum because it's no fun when everyone agrees - I tend to post on the religious sites.  But I'd like to hear what people think as I haven't heard it before.  If others have said it, klet me know.


Something has always bothered me about Plantinga's Free Will defense regarding the 'Problem of Evil', which to me is the most devastating argument against a theological God.  Plantinga claims evil and a good/loving God can co-exist, as the enabling of free will requires evil and a greater moral good could result from such free will.  But such a rational is clearly contradicts Christianity.  Let's ignore the fact even the statement  itself invalidates God (it implies there are unchanging laws to which even God must subscribe to - ie, free will requires evil).  Just consider:

1) The Christian God has directly killed millions of people
2) He has ordered the killing of millions more
3) He aids his people with storms, plagues, and various other phenomena
4) He sends his Son to save people that otherwise would not be
5) He cures some diseases, raises the dead, feeds the hungry, and so forth
6) Heck, he EVEN makes sure there is enough wine at a party he attends

Clearly, the Christian God is WILLING and DOES violate the free will doctrine.  Plantinga's defense only makes sense as long as God NEVER interacts with the universe.  But according to the Bible and Christian theology, this happens constantly, even for something as simple as a party needing more wine.

Thus, although Plantinga's defense may be philosophical sound, it contradicts Christian theology - and therefore is invalid when used to defend Christianity.

And there's the fact the free will doctrine can't be found in the bible.. That free will is a greek philosophy that came 1000s of years after the first free will choice was supposedly made. That Jesus when asked about the subject likened us to slaves given but one choice to make. Which is only possible because he paid the price of our freedom.

Can a loving God still be apart of this? yes, just not your westernized modern version of love. Rather God offers Agape which does indeed allow for pain. also of note. the bible never ever says God is omnibenevolent. that is another religious teaching not found in the bible. God's love has limits and is conditional so say John 3:16

goes into greater detail here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DZnBbo7R7I&t=9s
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is good.
That doesn't mean question just the questionable, it also means that we should question the foundational. If you have a biblically based question you'd rather not openly discuss i am happy to receive any PM's Semi-discreetly, or Email [email protected]

A/S/K= ask, seek, knock. As outlined in luke 11:5-13

Semi-discreetly= will never share details openly with anyone, but may remind you that I am not speaking out of a vaccum but rather that you may have shared some personal info with me 8+ years ago Dodgy 
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#5
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
FUCK god!
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#6
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
(January 16, 2020 at 4:21 am)mrj Wrote: I posted this on reasonablefaith.org (I doubt it will even be approved by the moderator).  I figure I'd post it here as well.  I typically don't post on this forum because it's no fun when everyone agrees - I tend to post on the religious sites.  But I'd like to hear what people think as I haven't heard it before.  If others have said it, klet me know.


Something has always bothered me about Plantinga's Free Will defense regarding the 'Problem of Evil', which to me is the most devastating argument against a theological God.  Plantinga claims evil and a good/loving God can co-exist, as the enabling of free will requires evil and a greater moral good could result from such free will.  But such a rational is clearly contradicts Christianity.  Let's ignore the fact even the statement  itself invalidates God (it implies there are unchanging laws to which even God must subscribe to - ie, free will requires evil).  Just consider:

1) The Christian God has directly killed millions of people
2) He has ordered the killing of millions more
3) He aids his people with storms, plagues, and various other phenomena
4) He sends his Son to save people that otherwise would not be
5) He cures some diseases, raises the dead, feeds the hungry, and so forth
6) Heck, he EVEN makes sure there is enough wine at a party he attends

Clearly, the Christian God is WILLING and DOES violate the free will doctrine.  Plantinga's defense only makes sense as long as God NEVER interacts with the universe.  But according to the Bible and Christian theology, this happens constantly, even for something as simple as a party needing more wine.

Thus, although Plantinga's defense may be philosophical sound, it contradicts Christian theology - and therefore is invalid when used to defend Christianity.

It isn't at all clear how God interacting with the world violates free will.  There are good and sufficient reasons to doubt that free will exists, but your post doesn't really address the issue.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#7
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
And other people prefer to saw at the leg of benevolence....
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#8
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
(Yesterday at 4:40 pm)no one Wrote: FUCK god!

i think you misspelled your mother name.
Naughty
1Thess 5:21 Question all things and hold on to what is good.
That doesn't mean question just the questionable, it also means that we should question the foundational. If you have a biblically based question you'd rather not openly discuss i am happy to receive any PM's Semi-discreetly, or Email [email protected]

A/S/K= ask, seek, knock. As outlined in luke 11:5-13

Semi-discreetly= will never share details openly with anyone, but may remind you that I am not speaking out of a vaccum but rather that you may have shared some personal info with me 8+ years ago Dodgy 
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#9
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
I find it funny that you used the word think.
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#10
RE: Plantinga's "Free Will" defense contradicts Christianity
Platinga defended free will by sawing off gods omnipotence.

He maintains that there are some worlds that a god cannot create. A world in which creatures are significantly morally free and which contains no evil or suffering is among those worlds.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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