Providing for widowed women? Firstly, these weren't widows. They were virgins, and the only reason they'd have trouble finding men is that someone came, killed her friends and family, stole their stuff, and dragged her off to be raped. Then if she didn't satisfy him enough he could shave her head and throw her out on the street.

We have very different views on what the bible is like. This isn't because I'm making stuff up. It's because I'm not making excuses for a god that lets current human culture dictate what he says is right or wrong. You have this conclusion that Yahweh is a good person, and everything he does is right, so any time his actions don't fit what most civilized people believe is right, you have to make some sort of excuse for it, or maybe say he's mysterious and incomprehensible like other people have said. Incomprehensible, but undeniably good somehow.

It's a confusing book that can be used to justify pretty much everything.

Are you actually saying you don't know where in the Bible god kills people or orders them killed? Have you ever read the Bible? I mean, the New Testament is nicer and everything, but there are still moments of god being a blood thirsty monster, but if you read the OT, it's almost like god has some kind of mental disorder that prevents him from going a couple of days without someone getting killed because of him. I mean, he kills a guy for pulling out of his dead brothers wife when he cums, he kills a group of children for making fun of a bald guy, he kills the firstborn of Egypt just to show everyone he's in charge (and it was only after he took credit for hardening the Pharaohs' heart), he kills a lot of the Hebrews when Moses catches them kissing a holy butt other than his own, he kills all of Jobs' family and servents to prove a point and he even kills every living thing on earth except for what little can fit on a wooden boat. If the Bible is accurate, God has more blood in his hands than Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Osama Bin Laden COMBINED.

(January 18, 2014 at 6:01 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Providing for widowed women? Firstly, these weren't widows. They were virgins.

Virgin can mean young woman in Hebrew not necessarily a literal virgin. Their village would have been destroyed and their men folk killed so of course they would have needed some man to look after them in a home where they do their household choirs and what have you, their natural element where they belong.

Quote:, and the only reason they'd have trouble finding men is that someone came, killed her friends and family, stole their stuff, and dragged her off to be raped.

We're talking about tribal wars and the division of the spoils women included. There is a cultural/historical context that is a little different from our own. Morality has changed but I would claim for the better and for a good reason.

Quote: Then if she didn't satisfy him enough he could shave her head and throw her out on the street.

That's not quite how it worked. What happens is her head is shaved, she is given a period of mourning where she is not to be "known" by her new husband. If shes not happy about the situation after this period she can leave and not be sold into slavery due to the dishonour she suffered. Yes it's not really what we would do all the same.

Quote:It's because I'm not making excuses for a god that lets current human culture dictate what he says is right or wrong.

There is a right and wrong, a good and evil and we understand this on some level. We don't always get it exactly right but we know it's important for some reason. We have an inner sense for this, Mere Christianity is a good book that fleshes this all out. Otherwise what you're left with is "opinion" which can be anything and is meaningless. No-ones cares what your opinion of morality is only that you are moral.

Quote: You have this conclusion that Yahweh is a good person

No God is the foundation of what good actually is not a good person. You're good if your action draws you closer to God and evil/sinful if it draws away from God. God is the benchmark and the measuring stick, God is your conscious, the quiet inner voice the guiding point.

Quote:, so any time his actions don't fit what most civilized people believe is right, you have to make some sort of excuse for it

Flawed sinful humans wrote the Bible and communicated on Gods behalf and so there is plenty of scope for some miscommunication. Jesus message somewhat more pure as in him you have God speaking directly without an intermediary.

Quote:, or maybe say he's mysterious and incomprehensible like other people have said. Incomprehensible, but undeniably good somehow.

If you want to know what Gods standards of morality are then listen to what Jesus say, seeing as Jesus is God.

Quote:It's a confusing book that can be used to justify pretty much everything.

The New Testament/Christ should clear up any misunderstandings. God saw that this was a necessary amendment.

Well if Jesus was Yahweh, and he obviously had some different things to say compared to what was told in the old testament, where's the apology? His views didn't line up exactly as they once did. There are times when Jesus didn't act like he was the same person as the guy upstairs. His thought of "Let not my will, but your will, be done" is a pretty good example. They couldn't even get that part straight, not that they got much straight with this story given the inconsistencies with the books that speak of his birth, death, and resurrection.

If Yahweh inspired people to write something, and they got something wrong, then it's Yahweh's fault for not proofreading what was written or making himself clear enough. Why were there tribal wars for land when Yahweh could have just given them uninhabited land? Because it wasn't about just taking land.

They killed the women who had known men, so I'm pretty sure virgin meant virgin. Not just young woman.

What makes you think Yahweh is the benchmark? all you have is stories written by men, eventually compiled into a bible that doesn't fit much of what modern audiences believe is right or wrong. Look, I can be self centered sometimes too, just like Yahweh, but I don't go around killing people for not following me.

You can't have a guy that can't be understood my mortals, and then say with absolute certainty that he's the very definition of good.

(January 18, 2014 at 6:57 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Well if Jesus was Yahweh, and he obviously had some different things to say compared to what was told in the old testament

The exact same message the Old Testament conveyed overall just with some clarification.

Quote: His views didn't line up exactly as they once did.

He didn't come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it and all that business. Here we go.

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18

Quote:There are times when Jesus didn't act like he was the same person as the guy upstairs.

He was and he wasn't at the same time seeing as he was a human as well as being God, it's a mysterious mystical kind of thing. It's easier to understand it as Jesus speaks with the same authority as God with the words of God. Not on behalf of God as a prophet but as God himself directly. Of course this was pretty major blasphemy for the Jews at the time, one the main reason he ended up on the cross.

Quote:If Yahweh inspired people to write something, and they got something wrong, then it's Yahweh's fault for not proofreading what was written or making himself clear enough.

Like anything in life you can't avoid human error. And it was humans he was having to work with. But the end result was a very good considering, using the material to hand.

Quote: Why were there tribal wars for land when Yahweh could have just given them uninhabited land?

He gave it to them by getting them pumped, filling them with the driving zeal, the berserker rage and what have you to take it from them. Everything God does in the Bible was through the actions and experiences of other people if you read it. As for Noahs Ark and all that business I think he got some angels to open up the flood gates in the firmament above the world to let the waters above in or something. It doesn't say he controlled nature directly you have a natural order with his creatures within it and an interaction between God and his creatures. So God was portrayed differently to Zeus or Poseidon who could physically and directly get involved in the action.

Quote:Because it wasn't about just taking land.

The instruction was to drive everyone from the land and leave no-one alive upon the land. So it was only the land that was being specifically targeted for acquisition not an ethic group of people as there were no further instructions to chase anyone who fled from the land.

Quote:They killed the women who had known men, so I'm pretty sure virgin meant virgin. Not just young woman.

Ah you mean this one.

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man" Numbers 31:17

We can take that as the human author in the culture of his time getting a little carried away with his zeal. If it's something Jesus wouldn't say then cherry pick it out, well sorted.

Quote:What makes you think Yahweh is the benchmark?

God is provider of the Moral Law and so therefore is the objective standard of morality that exists independently from the human mind. Otherwise it's your own subjective opinion or whatever there wouldn't be anything to grade it against.

Quote: all you have is stories written by men, eventually compiled into a bible that doesn't fit much of what modern audiences believe is right or wrong.

The morality is on whole quite good aside a few of the unfortunate parts you can pick out. You can see it as God attempting to guide his people who were a little rough around the edges and needed to be hammered out. You're reading the work in progress, and it still is a work in progress today.

Quote: Look, I can be self centered sometimes too, just like Yahweh, but I don't go around killing people for not following me.

That didn't actually happen as far as I know, people from other religions/cultures were to be treated as equals in Jewish society and not persecuted. People were to be stoned to death for apostasy trying to incite worship of foreign gods but this the nature of the ultra zealous culture of the time. Modern Jews don't exactly do this you'll notice.

Quote:You can't have a guy that can't be understood my mortals, and then say with absolute certainty that he's the very definition of good.

Humans have a really serious difficult hard time understanding God/Divinity but that's our own limitations not Gods. There are some people who don't believe God even exists at all. hock:

We're getting a little bit off Islam and it's peaceful nature here anyway. Judaism and Christianity did indulge in a little bit of force through arms conquest but was Islam entirely based upon it right from the start?

He didn't do a good job conveying his message. If you come to my house to write something down that I think is very important, I will do everything in my power to make sure you get it just right. if you don't, it's my fault because I'm the one dictating.

Obviously we got very different ideas of what we read in the bible. My reading of the bible, and learning about things surrounding the stories of the bible led me to believe it's not any more divinely inspired than any other book out there about creator gods and men who were born of virgins and rose again three days after they got killed. And there are older religions with those stories in them.

If you want to cherry pick out the kinds of things you think Jesus wouldn't say, or interpret the new and old testaments to fit despite being made about a thousand years apart, then go ahead. If Yahweh really existed, he just comes off as very outdated and not very good at his job. Almost like he doesn't understand us any more than we understand him.

Getting back to Islam, I haven't read the book but I heard it started out peaceful, but got violent towards the end. As opposed to the bible, which starts out violent with wars and slaughter in the name of the lord, and ended up more peaceful about a guy that wants you to love your enemies and give to the poor.

(January 18, 2014 at 8:07 pm)Chad32 Wrote: He didn't do a good job conveying his message.

Perhaps we didn't do a good job of receiving his message in some places? Communication is a two way kind of thing so there's scope for some misunderstanding. Anything in the Bible that you feel within you isn't conducive to Gods true morality that you know in your inner heart is a little bit of something that just ended up in there. You can't really go through it with a read pen as it is written in a real historical context. Just cherry pick the shit out of it based on this inner guidance. You can't do this with the Quran though as it's meant to be 100% perfect.

Quote:If you come to my house to write something down that I think is very important, I will do everything in my power to make sure you get it just right.

The employer can give perfect instructions to his employees but the employees can still fuck up. The fault is on the employees not the employer. The Jews did a reasonable job of it though, the Old Testament/Torah isn't really as bad as all that. The central message is put across well. Plenty of info on God and his nature as well, still holds up today. The Iliad of Homer doesn't so much that's a good comparison. Eternal truths of the Lords Word *pounds Bible*

Quote: My reading of the bible, and learning about things surrounding the stories of the bible led me to believe it's not any more divinely inspired than any other book out there about creator gods and men who were born of virgins and rose again three days after they got killed.

There could be a little divine inspiration in stories outside the Bible of course, if there's any universal quality you're noticing. But there most likely was a real historical Jesus/Yeshua at the heart of it somewhere. What we know of him is difficult to say as nothing contemporary was recorded.

Quote: And there are older religions with those stories in them.

They serve to reinforce the message.

Quote: If Yahweh really existed, he just comes off as very outdated and not very good at his job.

The problem doesn't come from Gods end we're the sinful creatures here not him.

Quote: Almost like he doesn't understand us any more than we understand him.

He knows our inner most being, he created it he will know.

"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb." Psalm 139:13

(January 18, 2014 at 12:32 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(January 18, 2014 at 12:05 pm)Minimalist Wrote: No there wasn't. It's all later bullshit designed to give the Hasmonean kings a glorious history.

Read some current archaeology and learn how you have been fooled.

I have actually heard that there's no evidence that the Exodus really happened, and Nazareth may not have even existed.

Correct on the Exodus.

The issue with "Nazareth" is more complex. The scope of human habitation is in question. There was certainly some sort of village on the site by the 3d century, AD. The issue is, was there a major town on the site at the end of the first millenium BC. The answer to that seems to be "no."

And that leaves the gospel accounts covered with shit....which jesus freaks hate.

When judging what yahweh's true morality is, I don't start with the assumption that he's always good or right. You can't go into an investigation trying to find answers to your conclusion. You should observe the evidence, and make a conclusion from that. Cherry picking the shit out of the bible is what led to there being tens of thousands of denominations of christianity. If that's fine for you, then whatever. There are people that believe the bible is meant to be 100% correct, as well as literal, and there are people that have taken all mention of the supernatural from the bible and just used the mundane parts of the new testament as a guide. You can do whatever you want. I just abandon it.

Monotheism has always been imposed on population with armed force, from Ezra's coup over Judea, christianity through Europe by the Roman and Byzantine Empires, Across Germany, Scandinavia and Russia all by armed force, then to the various European colonies... Islam simply follows the same pattern.