(March 18, 2010 at 12:09 am)Watson Wrote: A world where God was clearly proveable to any Joe Schmoe would be terrible.

It would be terrible if we knew for a fact that this deity is real? How so?

Communication of ideas is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. I've had dogs more intelligent than some people. No animal can explain to another in an abstract, not 'in the moment' way. They teach by example.
Therefore, what is it that we are evolving to ultimately communicate? My guess is unconditional love for our fellow man. Any takers?

(March 18, 2010 at 4:27 am)leo-rcc Wrote:

(March 17, 2010 at 9:53 pm)AngelThMan Wrote:

Minimalist Wrote:Not quite as dumb as a bag of hair but it would be like trying to explain radar to your dog.

According to some here, animals are just as smart as people. So it shouldn't be a problem.

If that is what you got out of those pages of discussion then you have either a: not read any reply properly or b: are as dim as a doorknob.

"B" would be the tempting answer but I think the answer is "A." Too busy talking to listen to the replies.

(March 17, 2010 at 12:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Sorry Watson I guess I did not make my statement clear enough HE created our intelligence this would not be difficult for the all powerful and all knowing God.

He diddnt make us that intelligent, we are the only species on the planet that destroys its own environment, if he did give us intelligence we should ask for a refund

(March 17, 2010 at 12:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Yes God knows there is evil He observed as Satan allowed evil to come into existance through his selfishness.

"In the begining god created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING within them" or some bollox like that, therefore god created both evil and satan, i have seen gods personally created evil first hand, satan was made up to pass the buck for all of your "loving" gods evil which he created.

(March 17, 2010 at 12:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: God can stop evil and has many times if God were to stop evil always then we would no longer have freedom of choice and that would make us unwilling slaves for Gods selfish use.This was not the purpose of creation. God is omniscient,omnipotent,omnibenevolent and omnipresent you left that one out.

Why does he not stop the evils of malaria, dengue, west nile fever etc etc etc which he created to torture innocent children? Why does ho not squish the evil peadophiles in the church using his cover to abuse children? because he dose'nt exist

(March 17, 2010 at 12:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Why do you say God created evil and freewill.Freewill is a right given to all and evil is a result of disobedience they exist just as God exist.

Can you show me where in the bible it actually uses the words "god gave freewill to man"? because i am sure you are repeating what someone has said to you, based on some motals reasons as to why god is so evil and does not banish all that is bad

Godschild Wrote:Sorry Watson I guess I did not make my statement clear enough HE created our intelligence this would not be difficult for the all powerful and all knowing God.

AngelaRachnid Wrote:He diddnt make us that intelligent, we are the only species on the planet that destroys its own environment, if he did give us intelligence we should ask for a refund

This is just political agenda on your part. Humans are doing something you feel is wrong, therefore they're not so intelligent. It's like saying a bank robber is not intelligent because he does something you disapprove of. Apparently you're not smart enough to understand that it does take intelligence to rob a bank, and to blow away your own planet. You're talking about moral judgment and compassion. They may not have any of that. God gave man intelligence; unfortunately not everyone uses it to do the right thing.

Godschild Wrote:Saerules I guessing you live some place outside the southern US here trample means to try and stomp a thing out of existance.

Which would be an impressive thing to do to a claim What would trampling a claim look like, i rather do wonder? Crushing someone's head into the ground with one's boot?

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(March 18, 2010 at 4:32 pm)RedFish Wrote: Communication of ideas is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. I've had dogs more intelligent than some people. No animal can explain to another in an abstract, not 'in the moment' way. They teach by example.
Therefore, what is it that we are evolving to ultimately communicate? My guess is unconditional love for our fellow man. Any takers?

Written communication is rather what sets us "apart", to the extent of my knowledge at least. Hell... even bacteria communicate and co-operate with each other. Ie: http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/reprint/66/3/486 http://protomag.com/assets/slime-and-the-city

Communication occurs between some of the "simplest" "creatures" (and serves as one of the most powerful tools for the survival of life)... what evidence have you that "more advanced" (multicellular) animals can't communicate? It is a ridiculous suggestion that communication is unique to humans... we are not special and beautiful butterflies any more than anything else. We just are. And we make what we will of that... some thinking we are "too much", others "not enough", and still more "different", "unique", understand nihilistic existentialism, or whatever else it is that some might think of 'reality'.

Communication of ideas is what I said. That's quite different. i.e. You can teach a man/woman to fish without him/her ever seeing water. I quite agree that simple communication is common throughout the animal kingdom. But simple communication isn't what I meant. We are able to share our thoughts, not just our 'feelings'. And not just in written form.
I don't understand nihilistic existentialism myself. Feel free to sum up for a simpleton..

(March 17, 2010 at 3:50 am)AngelThMan Wrote: Without further ado, here’s the evidence: Humans are the only species, out of millions of species, which have evolved into an intelligent life form. Other species live pretty much to eat and sleep -- survival. If our evolution were only a result of natural selection, shouldn’t other species, or even just one, have evolved into intelligent beings after millions of years? But the fact is that no other species have been able to develop science, literature, art, music and intelligent thought process as humans have. Isn’t this evidence that God exists?

Are you kidding? Why would a wolf have developed science? Why would a penguin have developed art? Why would a crocodile have developed music? Why would a dolphin have developed literature? How would these things have helped any of these species survive? People didn't develop these things until civilized societies emerged. Prior to that, people were too busy trying to find their next meal to be bothered with art, literature or music.

Quote:Yes it is, and for several reasons. For one thing it corroborates what’s written in the bible, which is that God created man in his image, and that animals are inferior.

It's also written in the Bible that it's okay to keep and buy slaves. Do you think this is also true?

Quote:But to truly understand why my evidence points towards a deity one needs to be able to appreciate the grandness of this gift that is human intelligence. And you have to ask yourself, why are we the only species, out of millions, that have achieved this type of intelligence? Evolution is about natural selection, but shouldn’t at least one other species, out of millions, have benefited from intelligence? I think so. And there would be a myriad of other intelligent species if there were no God.

So, you think that if there were no god it would be like Planet of the Apes? We would have talking animals running around?

Quote:We don't have any evidence that disproves a God. If we do, can you explain?

Actually, I did present evidence that disproves your god, but I notice you ignored it, so I'll post it again. Your god is supposedly "good, loving and just". Yet, the Bible describes many instances where your god kills innocent people indiscriminately. He also directs others to kill innocent people indiscriminately. These are not the actions of a being that is good, loving or just. Therefore, your god is a contradiction and impossible.

Quote:This approach presupposes that there is not a God. Why would this be the starting analysis?

Because it is the logical default position. For the same reason that a person charged with a crime is presumed to be innocent. Because it must BE PROVEN that this person committed the crime. Just like it MUST BE PROVEN that your deity is real. Otherwise, the default position is that ANYTHING is real and it must be proven that it is not. This is simply poor logic.

(March 17, 2010 at 3:50 am)AngelThMan Wrote: We don't have any evidence that disproves a God. If we do, can you explain?

There is of course no evidence that can disprove the God of which you speak. But that's far from saying the chances are 50/50.

What we do have are huge amounts of evidence, research and observations gathered from all over the world and over many centuries in many different disciplines that render the chances of this God actually being real and the Bible actually being 'Truth' as breathtakingly and stunningly remote to say the very least.

Well for sake of argument lets say there was a 50/50 chance of god being real...... you still have like a 1 in 10,000 shot of it being YOUR god....