(February 23, 2014 at 11:29 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(February 22, 2014 at 5:08 pm)discipulus Wrote: Because I've been running into theists of all sorts in the years I've been here and all of them fervently want me to take their word for the fact that their particular variant of god exists without a shred of actual evidence to sustain the fact.

You seem pretty much par for the course, I'm afraid.

I do not fervently want you to take my word that God exists.

I would say look no further than Jesus of Nazareth for your evidence. But do not take my word for it. Look into His life, His teachings, His death, His burial, His resurrection. All of which were in accordance with scripture that had been written hundreds of years prior to His birth. Do not take my word please, but inquire honestly and openly into these matters.

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(February 23, 2014 at 9:31 pm)Rahul Wrote: [quote='discipulus' pid='608905' dateline='1393205287']
That is why according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010 there were 2.18 billion Christians around the world, nearly a third of the global population.

Well I'm sure I'm still on the books as being one of those. I didn't contact the Southern Baptist committee to take me off their roster.

No worries!

Who knows, one day, you may renounce your atheism and come back to the fold as the prodigal son returned to his father after he came to his senses.

Any passage that says that people have an innate knowledge of god was either talking about the belief in gods in just about every culture, or was just flat out lying. It's pretty easy to tell it's not true by going around to places that haven't heard of christianity and ask them if they believe in someone who matches Yahweh's description.

Also if you're going to study Jesus' presumed life in the bible, you might as well look at the other figures that led similar lives in other mythologies. Pick which one suits your fancy best.

(February 23, 2014 at 9:32 pm)discipulus Wrote: No worries!

Who knows, one day, you may renounce your atheism and come back to the fold as the prodigal son returned to his father after he came to his senses.

I hope not. Developing dementia when I get older is one of my greatest fears.

Quote:I would say look no further than Jesus of Nazareth for your evidence.

I can't find any one of that name or description in HISTORY. I don't give a shit about your bible.

(February 23, 2014 at 9:40 pm)Rahul Wrote:

(February 23, 2014 at 9:32 pm)discipulus Wrote: Who knows, one day, you may renounce your atheism and come back to the fold as the prodigal son returned to his father after he came to his senses.

I hope not. Developing dementia when I get older is one of my greatest fears.

Not to mention that since atheism is the rejection of theism, renouncing it makes no sense. One can only adopt an extra layer of belief to become a theist. It takes more work, adopting yet another layer, to proceed - or descend - to xtianity.

Because maybe man created god in his image?

(February 23, 2014 at 9:28 pm)discipulus Wrote: Your point assumes that God specifically revealed Himself only to the Israelites and never to anyone else.

Yep, because if god revealed himself to anyone else, it would have been front page news, that when these christians finally got to another country, they found that christianity was already there and established. That would be a huge point in the religion's favor, and yet we never see that; what we see are distinct, wildly differing religions all across the world, and never once do we find two matching up at all.

So it's not an assumption that god never revealed himself to anyone else, it's a simple historical observation. The only other alternative was that god revealed himself to another region, but lied to them so they didn't end up with the same religion as the Israelites.

Quote:The Bible never states this and even if it did, you fail to take into account that God has never ceased revealing Himself to them that seek Him.

I have other sources than the bible, and "revealing himself to those that seek him," just means revealing himself to christians, apparently, since those seeking gods from areas where other religions are prevalent never found the christian god until missionaries got there and taught them about him, strangely enough.

Quote:That is why according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010 there were 2.18 billion Christians around the world, nearly a third of the global population.

So much for Him only revealing Himself to one group of people!

If you can't see a distinction between a real, extant god revealing himself to people, and other people who believe in this god revealing it to them, then that's your problem. But I don't see you taking converts to Islam as evidence that Allah is revealing himself to people, probably for the same reason I don't take christian converts as that.

Quote:The scriptures state that everyone that has ever existed has had knowledge of God through what has been made so that they are without excuse.

The scriptures were wrong.

Quote: Just because you are of the opinion that God could have cultivated His message more effectively in no way leads us to the conclusion that God does not exist. This is simply a non-sequitur.

I never said it did. However, the geographically limited spread of christianity certainly gives more weight to the possibility that it was just made up by a single tribe of people and spread gradually, rather than being the word of an all knowing god who wants his message spread effectively.

It's like if I had a budget to buy network television time all across the world to spread a message I wanted to spread, but instead I just distributed leaflets to a single neighborhood; would you say I was taking the most effective course of action for my stated goal of propagating my message to everyone, there?

Quote:Now if you have some type of argument you want to present then I am willing to interact with it. Merely stating your opinion in no way counts as a sound argument.

Given that you've failed to understand my argument at all, attempting to reduce it to just an opinion is fairly pathetic.

Quote:Once again, this is your opinion. If you have some type of argument you would like to present then I am willing to interact with it.

Oh, fuck off with that; it's not an opinion it's common fucking sense. If I had as my goal the spread of a message to everyone on the planet- because I love them and want them all to know it- and I had the power to appear to every nation of the world in the form that god did to the Israelites, would it or would it not be more effective of me to appear everywhere at once, clearly and concisely making my point, than to appear to one group of people and then wait for them to spread my message via Chinese fucking whispers?

It's simple math, dude: if one appearance of Jesus and so on was enough to start a religion, would not two appearances enhance the strength of the message? Is two a bigger number than one, or a smaller number?

(February 23, 2014 at 9:32 pm)discipulus Wrote: No worries!

Who knows, one day, you may renounce your atheism and come back to the fold as the prodigal son returned to his father after he came to his senses.

You could, which is probably why you should try to avoid head trauma.

(February 23, 2014 at 9:30 am)discipulus Wrote: But what arguments, what supporting evidence have you given to show that premise one is even true? You have an enormously huge burden to bear in showing that to be more plausibly true than its denial. What argument do you have that can demonstrate that in order for the Bible to be the Word of God it MUST focus on the entire planet? It seems to me in order for you to answer this you would have to reason that it is inconsistent with the nature of God to not mention other nations or other people groups. But how is this inconsistent with God's nature? Not only that but this assumes that He ignores everyone else except the Israelites, and we know this simply is not true if one has actually read the entire bible.

The problem is that the ONLY evidence you have is the Bible itself. There has been no evidence found in the rest of the planet that Yahweh revealed himself to anyone. You can speculate about God's nature all you want but at the end of the day we still need actual empirical evidence. Is it just a coincidence that God acts so mysteriously it is as if he doesn't exist at all?

(February 23, 2014 at 9:28 pm)discipulus Wrote: Your point assumes that God specifically revealed Himself only to the Israelites and never to anyone else.

The Bible never states this and even if it did, you fail to take into account that God has never ceased revealing Himself to them that seek Him.

That is why according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010 there were 2.18 billion Christians around the world, nearly a third of the global population.

So much for Him only revealing Himself to one group of people!

Myths spread like wildfire, so does that mean that they're all true? How do you know for a fact that god himself (if he exists), revealed himself to them? Word of mouth means nothing. Oh, and of those 2.18 billion christians, how many of them didn't just put a label on themselves, and don't know anything about the bible or the man they're supposed to be worshipping? I've seen more of those christians than ones that actually know what's going on in their religion.